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And what does Apple's servers detecting spamming patterns have to do with rooted/jailbroken devices? iMessage fundamentally is used every day by people who can

by saurik 3y ago

And what does Apple's servers detecting spamming patterns have to do with rooted/jailbroken devices? iMessage fundamentally is used every day by people who can have as much root as they want on their desktop Mac, and so whatever mechanisms we are talking about that differentiate iMessage from whatever other services can't be cited as an argument to take away freedom to modify your software.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
I am not certain, but at a minimum, I suspect that Apple knows a non-rooted device will be incapable of lying about, say, its serial number; whereas a rooted device might make one up and try repeatedly until it finds one that works. The ability to lie about such identifiers makes a device ban impossible to enforce.
- saurik 3y ago
  And how does that explain Apple not having an issue with you using iMessage on a desktop Mac? Again: we know the anti-spam mechanisms Apple might have in place do not rely on people being unable to root their devices as iMessage runs on desktop Macs (as well as on jailbroken iOS devices, btw, without any need for subterfuge). Apple simply does not have this restriction that Google is imposing on RCS. Apple's anti-spam comes from a combination of server-side analysis, having a centralized way to enforce bans, and tying accounts to phone numbers, none of which seem to involve banning jailbroken devices as, again: Apple doesn't. (FWIW, I don't know off the top of my head how Apple ties your iMesaage account to your phone number. I vaguely remember that it involves functionality implemented by the carrier, not just trusting the client, and as RCS definitely has to be supported by the carrier there is no issue deploying such here. Regardless, not only would trusting the client be ridiculously stupid in case it ever got hacked, we can continue to lean into the analysis that Apple does not nor have they ever banned jailbroken iPhones from using iMessage, and so we don't even have to dig deeply: we know their security model doesn't rely on something they don't do.)
  - eviks 3y ago
    Think it sends a confirmation SMS?
voidwtf 3y ago
Apple has often asserted that software obtained outside their walled garden will do things behind your back on the phone, like using your phone to send spam or collecting your data. I do not agree with this assertion as it implies anyone not playing in their garden is a criminal, but I'd assume these types of behaviors will use that as an excuse. Apple can't put the genie back in the bottle with macOS, they've been trying though. True root requires a special boot sequence otherwise you really only get pseudo-root. They introduced the AppStore to macOS and it was a huge flop because of how restrictive they made it. Microsoft also tried the same with Windows S on ARM devices and eventually were forced to allow disabling S mode. Again, I think there is this impression that I agree with any or all of their behaviors. I don't, I'm only reasoning about why and how in some cases it might be one part of a deterrent. Nothing stops me from jumping over a fence, so why put it up to begin with?
- saurik 3y ago
  We know it isn't part of the deterrent as Apple simply doesn't do this: Apple does not now nor have they ever restricted the use of iMessage on either desktop Macs -- whether their SIP is enabled or not -- nor on jailbroken iPhones. It is thereby nonsensical to look at Google implementing such a restriction and then say it makes sense because Apple manages to keep spam off their platform somehow... we know that is unrelated to how Apple pulls that off as Apple literally doesn't do this thing.

by saurik 3y ago

gjsman-1000 3y ago

I am not certain, but at a minimum, I suspect that Apple knows a non-rooted device will be incapable of lying about, say, its serial number; whereas a rooted device might make one up and try repeatedly until it finds one that works. The ability to lie about such identifiers makes a device ban impossible to enforce.

saurik 3y ago
And how does that explain Apple not having an issue with you using iMessage on a desktop Mac? Again: we know the anti-spam mechanisms Apple might have in place do not rely on people being unable to root their devices as iMessage runs on desktop Macs (as well as on jailbroken iOS devices, btw, without any need for subterfuge). Apple simply does not have this restriction that Google is imposing on RCS. Apple's anti-spam comes from a combination of server-side analysis, having a centralized way to enforce bans, and tying accounts to phone numbers, none of which seem to involve banning jailbroken devices as, again: Apple doesn't. (FWIW, I don't know off the top of my head how Apple ties your iMesaage account to your phone number. I vaguely remember that it involves functionality implemented by the carrier, not just trusting the client, and as RCS definitely has to be supported by the carrier there is no issue deploying such here. Regardless, not only would trusting the client be ridiculously stupid in case it ever got hacked, we can continue to lean into the analysis that Apple does not nor have they ever banned jailbroken iPhones from using iMessage, and so we don't even have to dig deeply: we know their security model doesn't rely on something they don't do.)
- eviks 3y ago
  Think it sends a confirmation SMS?

voidwtf 3y ago

Apple has often asserted that software obtained outside their walled garden will do things behind your back on the phone, like using your phone to send spam or collecting your data. I do not agree with this assertion as it implies anyone not playing in their garden is a criminal, but I'd assume these types of behaviors will use that as an excuse. Apple can't put the genie back in the bottle with macOS, they've been trying though. True root requires a special boot sequence otherwise you really only get pseudo-root. They introduced the AppStore to macOS and it was a huge flop because of how restrictive they made it. Microsoft also tried the same with Windows S on ARM devices and eventually were forced to allow disabling S mode. Again, I think there is this impression that I agree with any or all of their behaviors. I don't, I'm only reasoning about why and how in some cases it might be one part of a deterrent. Nothing stops me from jumping over a fence, so why put it up to begin with?

saurik 3y ago
We know it isn't part of the deterrent as Apple simply doesn't do this: Apple does not now nor have they ever restricted the use of iMessage on either desktop Macs -- whether their SIP is enabled or not -- nor on jailbroken iPhones. It is thereby nonsensical to look at Google implementing such a restriction and then say it makes sense because Apple manages to keep spam off their platform somehow... we know that is unrelated to how Apple pulls that off as Apple literally doesn't do this thing.