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Water management is more important than rot resistance. Wood will easily last for 100 years if let it dry. (you'll never be able to keep any part of your house

Water management is more important than rot resistance. Wood will easily last for 100 years if let it dry. (you'll never be able to keep any part of your house 100% dry).

MarkMarine 3y ago
There are some old ideas about water management that are A LOT different than the modern techniques. I live in a 120 year old house framed with old growth redwood. As wood goes, it's rock solid, but also everything in it breathes. It's painted with linseed oil paints, the lathe and plaster walls breathe moisture, and frankly it's not sealed well anywhere, including my original double hung windows. If this was a modern house, it would be covered in 5 different layers of plastic with the intent on keeping any moisture out, then sheathed in OSB that basically sees water and just melts away. Like you said, there is no way to keep it all the way dry, but energy efficiency (and cheap materials and quick building techniques) have also driven a housing design that is so tight that if there is moisture intrusion, it's got no good way to vent out.
- ok_dad 3y ago
  Do you have any good sources of info for your any my type of home; old and wood? I’m worried that some of the upgrades and paint done to this house is preventing as much “breathing” as it was designed for, and I don’t want my house to rot away. It’s really wet here!
  - VHRanger 3y ago
    Check out stuff by Joe Lstiburek (build science expert) and Brent Hull (linked in OP, historic restoration expert, has YouTube channel)
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    https://linseedpaint.com https://linseedpaint.com - This is where I get my paint, lots of information about why latex paint (and generally wrapping in plastic) ruins the wood of a house. Past there, I really like a timber framer who does YouTube called Mr. Chickadee, guy was a Marine who decided to live a simple life. He hand makes everything, but don't let the old timey hat and pants fool you, he's spent a ton of time thinking about how the old methods work and why, and picking through multiple cultures that have had old wooden structures that last hundreds or even thousands of years for the techniques he's using.
    - ok_dad 3y ago
      I love watching Mr chickadee. Thanks for the paint link!
  - turtlebits 3y ago
    Misconception - you don't want your house to breath (ie outdoor <-> indoor air mixing). You want it to be as airtight as possible, while allowing the exterior surfaces to dry if they get wet. However, leaky houses probably contribute to their longevity as those areas are able to dry from the outdoor air flowing indoors instead of rotting.
    - ok_dad 3y ago
      There ain’t no way my house is getting airtight, I open the windows every day, and in the summer most of the night. I am very careful about leaks and such so the wet tends to stay outside except for some condensation occasionally which I can’t avoid.
      - danans 3y ago
        > I open the windows every day, and in the summer most of the night. Then you shouldn't have an issue since you are basically living outdoors most of the time. As long as there is enough air movement, it should dry things out. The problem is condensation inside the walls. To deal with that, your wall has to be vapor-open to either the inside or outside, so it can dry. Standard interior paint is usually breathable. Also, if you are leaving your windows open that much in winter you probably consume a lot of heating fuel and therefore generate a lot of heat, which also dries things out. That's how it worked with old wood houses - you generated a ton of heat to dry them out.
        ok_dad 3y ago
        Thanks for that info! We don’t have any air conditioning, I live in a place where it ranges from 50-85 F throughout the year, rarely below 60 though. I’m trying not to install HVAC or heat until we have solar and storage installed that can support it, and it’s important to me that the house lasts and doesn’t contribute to ecological disasters such as climate change, micro plastic pollution, etc. I’m still learning a lot as most of my expertise is in software and not construction. I need to eventually strip off years of bad paint jobs with crappy paint, and I intend to use something breathable that lasts inside and out at that time.
- turtlebits 3y ago
  Modern techniques include rainscreens behind cladding, so air can flow behind siding and/or roofing as well as dimple mats to allow drainage for your foundation.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    Yeah, and those rain screens have a million staple holes in them right? Unless you seal every fastener hole with some sealant that will last 100 years, which I'm pretty sure would be a magical product, I sincerely doubt a modern house will be standing as long as mine is. Modern plastic paint, modern plastic building wrap, all these ideas of basically living inside a plastic hamster cage, they suffocate the living material (wood) that needs to breathe, and that allows rot and mold. The water eventually finds its way in because rain screen tape can't hold up for 50 years, the water gets in and has no good way to get out.
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      You know there are buildings built with OSB and wrapped in Tyvek that are older than 50 years and are still standing right?
      - MarkMarine 3y ago
        Do you think these houses will last hundreds of years? I don’t.
        sarchertech 3y ago
        Depends on maintenance. If a house can last 50 years it can probably last 100. Also remember, the vast majority of houses built in 1824 didn’t survive either. For the ones that did it’s mostly down to maintenance.
    - coryrc 3y ago
      Lots of houses were built using poor techniques you reference. Nowadays, we're back to emphasizing breathable homes. Vapor barriers are out, vapor retarders are in. You use an air barrier because air movement is far more effective at moving moisture into a wall than vapor drive. We actually engineer the amount of drying to be optimal in your climate and reduce the amount of energy the home uses.
- hattmall 3y ago
  Well the fundamental difference is that homes today are expected to be climate controlled year round. That negates pretty much any issues with normal moisture control. That being the case efficiency is a much larger concern.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    It matters where the cold condensing surface is in your wall, and what you do with that moisture. If you took a cross section of wall, and you have interior temp (20c) on the inside face of the wall and exterior temp on the outside face section of wall, somewhere inside that section you’re hitting the dew point and condensation will form.
ok_dad 3y ago
I hope longer because my house is 70 years old and all wood. It’s single wall construction, also. I’m really enjoying not having to worry about plaster wallboard or anything since the wall boards are all actually wood, too. I do see boards that need to be replaced soon in the eaves but I live where it rains a lot so that’s expected.

Water management is more important than rot resistance. Wood will easily last for 100 years if let it dry. (you'll never be able to keep any part of your house 100% dry).

MarkMarine 3y ago

There are some old ideas about water management that are A LOT different than the modern techniques. I live in a 120 year old house framed with old growth redwood. As wood goes, it's rock solid, but also everything in it breathes. It's painted with linseed oil paints, the lathe and plaster walls breathe moisture, and frankly it's not sealed well anywhere, including my original double hung windows. If this was a modern house, it would be covered in 5 different layers of plastic with the intent on keeping any moisture out, then sheathed in OSB that basically sees water and just melts away. Like you said, there is no way to keep it all the way dry, but energy efficiency (and cheap materials and quick building techniques) have also driven a housing design that is so tight that if there is moisture intrusion, it's got no good way to vent out.

ok_dad 3y ago
Do you have any good sources of info for your any my type of home; old and wood? I’m worried that some of the upgrades and paint done to this house is preventing as much “breathing” as it was designed for, and I don’t want my house to rot away. It’s really wet here!
- VHRanger 3y ago
  Check out stuff by Joe Lstiburek (build science expert) and Brent Hull (linked in OP, historic restoration expert, has YouTube channel)
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  https://linseedpaint.com https://linseedpaint.com - This is where I get my paint, lots of information about why latex paint (and generally wrapping in plastic) ruins the wood of a house. Past there, I really like a timber framer who does YouTube called Mr. Chickadee, guy was a Marine who decided to live a simple life. He hand makes everything, but don't let the old timey hat and pants fool you, he's spent a ton of time thinking about how the old methods work and why, and picking through multiple cultures that have had old wooden structures that last hundreds or even thousands of years for the techniques he's using.
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    I love watching Mr chickadee. Thanks for the paint link!
- turtlebits 3y ago
  Misconception - you don't want your house to breath (ie outdoor <-> indoor air mixing). You want it to be as airtight as possible, while allowing the exterior surfaces to dry if they get wet. However, leaky houses probably contribute to their longevity as those areas are able to dry from the outdoor air flowing indoors instead of rotting.
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    There ain’t no way my house is getting airtight, I open the windows every day, and in the summer most of the night. I am very careful about leaks and such so the wet tends to stay outside except for some condensation occasionally which I can’t avoid.
    - danans 3y ago
      > I open the windows every day, and in the summer most of the night. Then you shouldn't have an issue since you are basically living outdoors most of the time. As long as there is enough air movement, it should dry things out. The problem is condensation inside the walls. To deal with that, your wall has to be vapor-open to either the inside or outside, so it can dry. Standard interior paint is usually breathable. Also, if you are leaving your windows open that much in winter you probably consume a lot of heating fuel and therefore generate a lot of heat, which also dries things out. That's how it worked with old wood houses - you generated a ton of heat to dry them out.
      - ok_dad 3y ago
        Thanks for that info! We don’t have any air conditioning, I live in a place where it ranges from 50-85 F throughout the year, rarely below 60 though. I’m trying not to install HVAC or heat until we have solar and storage installed that can support it, and it’s important to me that the house lasts and doesn’t contribute to ecological disasters such as climate change, micro plastic pollution, etc. I’m still learning a lot as most of my expertise is in software and not construction. I need to eventually strip off years of bad paint jobs with crappy paint, and I intend to use something breathable that lasts inside and out at that time.
turtlebits 3y ago
Modern techniques include rainscreens behind cladding, so air can flow behind siding and/or roofing as well as dimple mats to allow drainage for your foundation.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  Yeah, and those rain screens have a million staple holes in them right? Unless you seal every fastener hole with some sealant that will last 100 years, which I'm pretty sure would be a magical product, I sincerely doubt a modern house will be standing as long as mine is. Modern plastic paint, modern plastic building wrap, all these ideas of basically living inside a plastic hamster cage, they suffocate the living material (wood) that needs to breathe, and that allows rot and mold. The water eventually finds its way in because rain screen tape can't hold up for 50 years, the water gets in and has no good way to get out.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    You know there are buildings built with OSB and wrapped in Tyvek that are older than 50 years and are still standing right?
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      Do you think these houses will last hundreds of years? I don’t.
      - sarchertech 3y ago
        Depends on maintenance. If a house can last 50 years it can probably last 100. Also remember, the vast majority of houses built in 1824 didn’t survive either. For the ones that did it’s mostly down to maintenance.
  - coryrc 3y ago
    Lots of houses were built using poor techniques you reference. Nowadays, we're back to emphasizing breathable homes. Vapor barriers are out, vapor retarders are in. You use an air barrier because air movement is far more effective at moving moisture into a wall than vapor drive. We actually engineer the amount of drying to be optimal in your climate and reduce the amount of energy the home uses.
hattmall 3y ago
Well the fundamental difference is that homes today are expected to be climate controlled year round. That negates pretty much any issues with normal moisture control. That being the case efficiency is a much larger concern.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  It matters where the cold condensing surface is in your wall, and what you do with that moisture. If you took a cross section of wall, and you have interior temp (20c) on the inside face of the wall and exterior temp on the outside face section of wall, somewhere inside that section you’re hitting the dew point and condensation will form.

ok_dad 3y ago

I hope longer because my house is 70 years old and all wood. It’s single wall construction, also. I’m really enjoying not having to worry about plaster wallboard or anything since the wall boards are all actually wood, too. I do see boards that need to be replaced soon in the eaves but I live where it rains a lot so that’s expected.