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> If your employees are so disfranchised that their install scripts to wiggle their mouse while they watch Netflix the battle is already lost. That would be a

> If your employees are so disfranchised that their install scripts to wiggle their mouse while they watch Netflix the battle is already lost. That would be a lot of companies and workers out there, dare I say the vast majority even. Believe it or not, many workers don't actually enjoy their work, their company, their boss or their job, but they put up with it because housing in expensive and it was the least horrible job they could find with the highest pay they could land, enabling them a lifestyle upgrade, even if they don't care for the work itself, so of course they'll take every opportunity they get to slack off and watch Netflix if they can. Expecting all your workers to be fully invested and committed on work while on the clock is an exercise in futility and something no company past a certain size will ever accomplish because everyone just looks after themselves and their own self interest first, screw the company and their shareholders. And the companies know this, hence the culture of micromanagement, spyware, RTO, etc. That's why start-ups and small companies can accomplish things the likes of Google can't, because they're formed mostly of motivated people who care about the product and the mission first and foremost, while the likes of Google are full of coasters who are there just to make as much money as possible with as little work as possible while the gravy train lasts.

ghaff 3y ago
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with people looking after themselves. A lot of of the people committed to a mission are going to end up getting screwed. (Not everyone, but probably most.)
- spacemark 3y ago
  Screwed in a monetary sense, perhaps. But this is just one thing people gain from work. For some it's not even that important.
  - sincerely 3y ago
    Ok, so just consider a world where jobs paid no money. How many people do you think would have a job? 10% of the amount now? 1%? Even if there are some very rare individuals that go to work primarily for companionship or for personal fulfillment that doesn't mean it's even worth bringing up in a discussion like this
    - strken 3y ago
      This is a bit of a misdirection because it equates jobs, which are work done for someone else, with all work. I am sure that the majority of people would still do something that can be considered work in a world without jobs. It's obvious that few people are going to subordinate themselves in a world where they don't get paid for doing so, and if they did it would look more like volunteer associations (only emergency response involves much hierarchy, most volunteers are only loosely associated with the org, individuals choose which shifts to turn up to, local leaders are elected and view it as a burden rather than a privilege) and less like work (you don't get to choose anything). Edit: I should add that I'm in no way against jobs, I just think that people who are doing largely unproductive work for free are still working, even though it'd be better for everyone if they were getting paid to do something more useful.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    If money is not that important, then it must have been important to them at some point for them to have obtained and retained it.
- giantg2 3y ago
  I agree. I started out mission driven, now I'm a coaster after getting screwed.
antihipocrat 3y ago
For startups is it perhaps easier to be intrinsically motivated in the company's success because there is likely to be more financial benefits? When large established companies complain about productivity and lack of employee commitment, the answer seems very obvious to me... Swap platitudes, certificates of recognition and motivational speeches with tangible financial incentives. If the executive wants everyone to come into the office 5 days a week, then offer a 25%+ pay rise and watch people flood in
- ornornor 3y ago
  > because there is likely to be more financial benefits? I don’t think this is true for the vast majority of startup employees though. Maybe the founders get some crazy return 10 years down the line if they’re lucky. Most everyone else would earn the same or less if there is a successful sale as they’d have at a “normal” company. And if there is no successful sale, they’d have earned less.
RHSeeger 3y ago
> Believe it or not, many workers don't actually enjoy their work, their company, their boss or their job There are a lot of people that don't enjoy their jobs, but do the work because they're getting paid to do it. You seem to assume that anyone doing their job _only_ because they're being paid to do it will _not_ do their job if they can get away with it (even though they're still being paid to do so). Not everyone is a horrible person. Plenty of people will continue to do their job even if they could lie and not do it; because they agreed "if you pay me, I will do my job". I've had times where I wasn't enjoying my job, but I still did the work... because that's the agreement I had with the company I worked for. And, like a lot of people, I wouldn't see it as acceptable to scam the company I work for.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  Eh scamming companies is fine, especially as they get larger. Companies scam employees whenever they get the chance.
  - error_logic 3y ago
    Classic tragedy of the commons and hypercompetitive destructive incentives which hurt everyone in the end, sort of like this- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRz54V7rU4U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRz54V7rU4U
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >There are a lot of people that don't enjoy their jobs, but do the work because they're getting paid to do it. How's that different from what I just said?
  - belval 3y ago
    > they don't care for the work itself, so of course they'll take every opportunity they get to slack off and watch Netflix if they can. Overall you do make it sound like you condone this, I got the same read as the person you are responding to...
wiether 3y ago
> That would be a lot of companies and workers out there, dare I say the vast majority even. Since I joined the workforce, I encountered something like two or three people doing actually nothing at work. And once they are identified, I just know that I can't expect any output from them and just do without them. It's the opposite that I'm confronted with daily : people who are absolutely terrible at their job and who constantly try participate. Not only I know that I have to triple check their outputs, but I also have to come up with fake tasks to give them so that they are not constantly asking for things to do or worst, doing disasters on their own initiative. They consume a lot of time and energy from the productive members of the team, while having no positive output for the company. It's like daycare for adults. And given that everybody is paid at the end of the month, I have nothing but love for unproductive (in the eyes of the company) people who take care of themselves. I'd rather have both those people doing what they enjoy outside of work instead of forcing themselves to be here because governments and corporations are saying that you are not a member of society if you are not selling your time to capitalism.

ghaff 3y ago

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with people looking after themselves. A lot of of the people committed to a mission are going to end up getting screwed. (Not everyone, but probably most.)

spacemark 3y ago
Screwed in a monetary sense, perhaps. But this is just one thing people gain from work. For some it's not even that important.
- sincerely 3y ago
  Ok, so just consider a world where jobs paid no money. How many people do you think would have a job? 10% of the amount now? 1%? Even if there are some very rare individuals that go to work primarily for companionship or for personal fulfillment that doesn't mean it's even worth bringing up in a discussion like this
  - strken 3y ago
    This is a bit of a misdirection because it equates jobs, which are work done for someone else, with all work. I am sure that the majority of people would still do something that can be considered work in a world without jobs. It's obvious that few people are going to subordinate themselves in a world where they don't get paid for doing so, and if they did it would look more like volunteer associations (only emergency response involves much hierarchy, most volunteers are only loosely associated with the org, individuals choose which shifts to turn up to, local leaders are elected and view it as a burden rather than a privilege) and less like work (you don't get to choose anything). Edit: I should add that I'm in no way against jobs, I just think that people who are doing largely unproductive work for free are still working, even though it'd be better for everyone if they were getting paid to do something more useful.
- giantg2 3y ago
  If money is not that important, then it must have been important to them at some point for them to have obtained and retained it.
giantg2 3y ago
I agree. I started out mission driven, now I'm a coaster after getting screwed.

antihipocrat 3y ago

For startups is it perhaps easier to be intrinsically motivated in the company's success because there is likely to be more financial benefits? When large established companies complain about productivity and lack of employee commitment, the answer seems very obvious to me... Swap platitudes, certificates of recognition and motivational speeches with tangible financial incentives. If the executive wants everyone to come into the office 5 days a week, then offer a 25%+ pay rise and watch people flood in

ornornor 3y ago
> because there is likely to be more financial benefits? I don’t think this is true for the vast majority of startup employees though. Maybe the founders get some crazy return 10 years down the line if they’re lucky. Most everyone else would earn the same or less if there is a successful sale as they’d have at a “normal” company. And if there is no successful sale, they’d have earned less.

RHSeeger 3y ago

> Believe it or not, many workers don't actually enjoy their work, their company, their boss or their job There are a lot of people that don't enjoy their jobs, but do the work because they're getting paid to do it. You seem to assume that anyone doing their job _only_ because they're being paid to do it will _not_ do their job if they can get away with it (even though they're still being paid to do so). Not everyone is a horrible person. Plenty of people will continue to do their job even if they could lie and not do it; because they agreed "if you pay me, I will do my job". I've had times where I wasn't enjoying my job, but I still did the work... because that's the agreement I had with the company I worked for. And, like a lot of people, I wouldn't see it as acceptable to scam the company I work for.

BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
Eh scamming companies is fine, especially as they get larger. Companies scam employees whenever they get the chance.
- error_logic 3y ago
  Classic tragedy of the commons and hypercompetitive destructive incentives which hurt everyone in the end, sort of like this- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRz54V7rU4U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRz54V7rU4U
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>There are a lot of people that don't enjoy their jobs, but do the work because they're getting paid to do it. How's that different from what I just said?
- belval 3y ago
  > they don't care for the work itself, so of course they'll take every opportunity they get to slack off and watch Netflix if they can. Overall you do make it sound like you condone this, I got the same read as the person you are responding to...

wiether 3y ago

> That would be a lot of companies and workers out there, dare I say the vast majority even. Since I joined the workforce, I encountered something like two or three people doing actually nothing at work. And once they are identified, I just know that I can't expect any output from them and just do without them. It's the opposite that I'm confronted with daily : people who are absolutely terrible at their job and who constantly try participate. Not only I know that I have to triple check their outputs, but I also have to come up with fake tasks to give them so that they are not constantly asking for things to do or worst, doing disasters on their own initiative. They consume a lot of time and energy from the productive members of the team, while having no positive output for the company. It's like daycare for adults. And given that everybody is paid at the end of the month, I have nothing but love for unproductive (in the eyes of the company) people who take care of themselves. I'd rather have both those people doing what they enjoy outside of work instead of forcing themselves to be here because governments and corporations are saying that you are not a member of society if you are not selling your time to capitalism.