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> Chronic litterbugs don't care, they're often low enough on the hierarchy of needs that this kind of morality isn't on their radar at all. I used to think tra

by creato 3y ago

> Chronic litterbugs don't care, they're often low enough on the hierarchy of needs that this kind of morality isn't on their radar at all. I used to think trash around my neighborhood was from just a general mass of people not caring about littering. It sounds like that's what you think too. Then, one day, I saw a homeless guy dumping every single trash can on the street out completely, tearing open the bags, looking for maybe 2 seconds, and then moving on to the next trash can. Call me harsh, but that behavior should merit a serious prison sentence. I think people overestimate the damage something like this causes to the environment, but underestimate the damage it does to society and the way people think about each other.

bombcar 3y ago
This is the kind of societal harm that does warrant (apparently) harsh punishment, because if it gets out of control there is just no way to resolve it. It doesn't have to be prison-prison; but something like that does call for maybe a Nordic-style prison that isolates society from the low-level but consistent harm. It's all very tragedy of the commons.
saagarjha 3y ago
I do want to say that we, as a society, place people in the position where they are more likely to do things that hurt everyone far more than it would be to lift them out of whatever position they’re in. It’s hard to make progress on this because, like, the homeless person knows just as well as anyone else that they shouldn’t make a mess, and the person who can’t afford to eat knows just as well as anyone else that they shouldn’t steal toiletries from stores. And many people in those situations do actually avoid doing that, which is great. But what would be even better is removing factors that make it more likely that people will behave poorly or justify it to themselves. I feel really good about trips I make on the train rather than the car but it’s partially because I have the time and money to do this pretty easily.
jstarfish 3y ago
> Call me harsh, but that behavior should merit a serious prison sentence. Not harsh, just lacking creativity and losing sight of what prison is for. For every piece of litter dropped, the sentence should be to pick up 10 more. Make criminals fix the problems they cause.

by creato 3y ago

bombcar 3y ago

This is the kind of societal harm that does warrant (apparently) harsh punishment, because if it gets out of control there is just no way to resolve it. It doesn't have to be prison-prison; but something like that does call for maybe a Nordic-style prison that isolates society from the low-level but consistent harm. It's all very tragedy of the commons.

saagarjha 3y ago

I do want to say that we, as a society, place people in the position where they are more likely to do things that hurt everyone far more than it would be to lift them out of whatever position they’re in. It’s hard to make progress on this because, like, the homeless person knows just as well as anyone else that they shouldn’t make a mess, and the person who can’t afford to eat knows just as well as anyone else that they shouldn’t steal toiletries from stores. And many people in those situations do actually avoid doing that, which is great. But what would be even better is removing factors that make it more likely that people will behave poorly or justify it to themselves. I feel really good about trips I make on the train rather than the car but it’s partially because I have the time and money to do this pretty easily.

jstarfish 3y ago

> Call me harsh, but that behavior should merit a serious prison sentence. Not harsh, just lacking creativity and losing sight of what prison is for. For every piece of litter dropped, the sentence should be to pick up 10 more. Make criminals fix the problems they cause.