5 ms·

Why is Germany always so naive when it comes to Russian espionage and infiltration?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Krasnol 3y ago
They are not in the conflict flow anymore. It's been trained out of their system for quite some time. It leads to some naive assumptions about how the world works. Even the events around the current conflict seem not to have shaken the society, from what I witness. The Green parties wishes on the topic of heat pumps or people coming to their country whose skin color is not white have more revolutionary potential than Russians right around the corner or people blowing up their gas pipelines. They are too busy with themselves and stuff like that is just embarrassing. It only serves as filling material for your everyday complaining orgy every single morning at work. Stuff a healthy German citizen leaves behind them at Feierabend.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > The Green parties wishes on the topic of heat pumps ... which are the most efficient way to wean us off of Russian gas. The Greens have pushed for years now to get rid of fossil fuel dependencies, turns out they did have a point all those decades.
  - lobocinza 3y ago
    AFAIK they killed nuclear and pushed towards natural gas (from Russia) at the time.
    - Krasnol 3y ago
      They never "pushed towards natural gas" and nuclear was killed by the Merkel Government while also stopping all renewable expansion for 16 years. Nuclear has been replaced many years ago by renewables in Germany. Stop spreading Michael Shillenbergers propaganda. Germany doesn't need nuclear the same way they don't need Russian gas anymore. You should all cheer for the Greens and for their foresight towards the end of the 90s when they pushed for renewables. Germany would still be struggling without them and Putin's gas if it hadn't been for their push for renewables.
      - lobocinza 3y ago
        I don't know Michael Shillenbergers. I'm not German and don't know a lot about German politics but a quick research showed me that you said a lot of BS. To summarize: > The anti-nuclear protests were also a driving force of the green movement in Germany, from which the party The Greens evolved. When they first came to power in the Schröder administration of 1998 they achieved their major political goal for which they had fought for 20 years: abandoning nuclear energy in Germany. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germa... The Greens were always against nuclear. It's hypocritical to blame Merkel government as the phase out was planned decades before, Merkel initially wanted to delay it but was faced with protest and backlash from Greens. Renewables drastically expanded in Germany but if you look at the evolution of German energy matrix you will see that renewables mostly coupled with increased energy demand while nuclear phase out came at a cost of increased usage and reliance on natural gas which naturally comes from Russia. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig1-installed-net-power-generation-capacity-germany-2002-2023.png https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... It's no surprise that: > After the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Schröder was criticized for his policies towards Vladimir Putin's government, his work for Russian state-owned companies, and his lobbying on behalf of Russia. On 1 March 2022, Schröder's entire staff including long-time office manager Albrecht Funk resigned due to Schröder's alliances with Russia and Putin directly. On 8 March 2022 the Public Prosecutor General initiated proceedings related to accusations against Schröder of complicity in crimes against humanity due to his role in Russian state-owned corporations. The CDU/CSU group demanded that Schröder be included in the European Union sanctions against individuals with ties to the Russian government. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        Krasnol 3y ago
        > I don't know Michael Shillenbergers. You don't have to. It's a feature of the internet. BS spreads and everybody tries to make it look like they came up with it by themselves. > The Greens were always against nuclear. It's hypocritical to blame Merkel government as the phase out was planned decades before, Merkel initially wanted to delay it but was faced with protest and backlash from Greens. Seems you didn't read that much. Yes, the phase out was decided during the Schröder Government (where the Greens were also the minor party btw) but Merkel DID delay it. Then Fukushima happened, and the delay was history, with the same CDU politicians pushing for the end of nuclear. Merkel was in power for 16! years. She didn't stop it before Fukushima (only delayed it for a few years) and she didn't stop it years after Fukushima. The simple and plain reason for that is that nobody besides a fascist fringe party and their followers want it back. It's done and gone. It's one of the few things in this country where people are OK with it. Blaming "dem Greens" is ridiculous and yes, it shows that you are not German. You just have no idea. You ate up what Shillenberger fed you and the whole of the internet and just repeat it without bothering. > Renewables drastically expanded in Germany but if you look at the evolution of German energy matrix you will see that renewables mostly coupled with increased energy demand while nuclear phase out came at a cost of increased usage and reliance on natural gas which naturally comes from Russia. Besides the fact that renewables have expanded, everything about this paragraph is wrong and you know it which is why you didn't link to the whole page: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... Also: you might not have realized that but the explosion of NS was 2022 and the natural gas prices have recovered https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/PlattsContent/_assets/_images/latest-news/19633e18-4729-41d5-849b-99358aaa0cbc.svg https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/PlattsContent/_as... It's 2024, and you keep on repeating statements based upon fake news. Or as you say: "BS". We don't give a damn about Putins gas anymore. Neither in Germany nor in the rest of Europe. Stop spreading fake news.
  - rasz 3y ago
    They also pushed against nuclear, but pro “low-carbon” hydrogen made using russian gas, and that was after russian invasion https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/revealed-how-germany-stepped-in-to-delay-eu-green-hydrogen-rules/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/revealed-how-ge...
    - Krasnol 3y ago
      Germany doesn't need nuclear. It had it replaced years ago with clean renewables you don't have to greenwash first in the same EU committees because your own taxpayer money can't come up with the subsidies required to keep it up, as Nuclear-France did.
trhway 3y ago
I'd venture a guess at least partially explaining it - Russia has been importing/cargo-culting German style of education, science, government, law, military, etc. for several centuries. Before 1917 like a half of the top of the Russian government and society was German. Lenin for example was half-German. The modern Russian language has developed during the last about 300 years, and the most closest/easiest non-Slavic European language for Russians is German. That all didn't make Russians into Germans, far for it, yet it lets Russians understand and mimicry the German style when needed (at least much easily than say French, English or Italian. Also kind of not surprising that the USSR was helping the revolution in Germany, and later the first 2 mega-totalitarian regimes happened to be Germany and USSR, and they were allies the first 2 years of WWII fighting together against democratic countries of Europe). And of course USSR had Eastern Germany for 40+ years - enough to develop deep networks and poison the minds.
- int_19h 3y ago
  > most closest/easiest non-Slavic European language for Russians is German. Speaking as a Russian, I find this assertion very questionable. Lithuanian and Latvian are far closer to East Slavic languages, for one thing. But even among West European languages, Spanish is easier IMO. In general, Russia borrowed a lot of science and engineering stuff from Germany, and definitely the military, but when it comes to governance - no, not really.
  - trhway 3y ago
    Russia runs German law system, it is just the results are so different that one has hard time to believe that it is the same system. The same with governance - German modeled, just again with very different results. The Spanish is good contender, agree, though, German I think closer and historically provided more influence - there were no noticeable Spanish speaking, Spanish literature nor philosophy in Russia, while German speakers, German literature and philosophy were massively present.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      The political system in Russia is closer to France if anything. But that's all on paper - the reality for both the justice system and the political one is obviously quite different and not in any sense German. If we're talking about cultural influence, I'd also say that France had a lot more influence in that regard, especially literature-wise. French was a de facto standard "educated class" language for close to two centuries, with quite a few of the nobility learning it as their first language. But, again, culturally Russia is by and large its own thing. The way I'd describe it is a European-style facade covering some unholy merger of Byzantium (the way it was understood in Muscovy, not necessarily how it actually was) and the Golden Horde. The latter part goes all the way back to the Grand Duchy of Moscow; the former, mostly to Peter the Great.
dilyevsky 3y ago
s/naive/compromised/ <- fixed that for you
newsclues 3y ago
East Germany was occupied the USSR and America isn’t the only nation with stay behind networks.
int_19h 3y ago
It is rather telling that German has a specific term like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putinversteher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putinversteher

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

They are not in the conflict flow anymore. It's been trained out of their system for quite some time. It leads to some naive assumptions about how the world works. Even the events around the current conflict seem not to have shaken the society, from what I witness. The Green parties wishes on the topic of heat pumps or people coming to their country whose skin color is not white have more revolutionary potential than Russians right around the corner or people blowing up their gas pipelines. They are too busy with themselves and stuff like that is just embarrassing. It only serves as filling material for your everyday complaining orgy every single morning at work. Stuff a healthy German citizen leaves behind them at Feierabend.

mschuster91 3y ago
> The Green parties wishes on the topic of heat pumps ... which are the most efficient way to wean us off of Russian gas. The Greens have pushed for years now to get rid of fossil fuel dependencies, turns out they did have a point all those decades.
- lobocinza 3y ago
  AFAIK they killed nuclear and pushed towards natural gas (from Russia) at the time.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    They never "pushed towards natural gas" and nuclear was killed by the Merkel Government while also stopping all renewable expansion for 16 years. Nuclear has been replaced many years ago by renewables in Germany. Stop spreading Michael Shillenbergers propaganda. Germany doesn't need nuclear the same way they don't need Russian gas anymore. You should all cheer for the Greens and for their foresight towards the end of the 90s when they pushed for renewables. Germany would still be struggling without them and Putin's gas if it hadn't been for their push for renewables.
    - lobocinza 3y ago
      I don't know Michael Shillenbergers. I'm not German and don't know a lot about German politics but a quick research showed me that you said a lot of BS. To summarize: > The anti-nuclear protests were also a driving force of the green movement in Germany, from which the party The Greens evolved. When they first came to power in the Schröder administration of 1998 they achieved their major political goal for which they had fought for 20 years: abandoning nuclear energy in Germany. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germa... The Greens were always against nuclear. It's hypocritical to blame Merkel government as the phase out was planned decades before, Merkel initially wanted to delay it but was faced with protest and backlash from Greens. Renewables drastically expanded in Germany but if you look at the evolution of German energy matrix you will see that renewables mostly coupled with increased energy demand while nuclear phase out came at a cost of increased usage and reliance on natural gas which naturally comes from Russia. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig1-installed-net-power-generation-capacity-germany-2002-2023.png https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... It's no surprise that: > After the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Schröder was criticized for his policies towards Vladimir Putin's government, his work for Russian state-owned companies, and his lobbying on behalf of Russia. On 1 March 2022, Schröder's entire staff including long-time office manager Albrecht Funk resigned due to Schröder's alliances with Russia and Putin directly. On 8 March 2022 the Public Prosecutor General initiated proceedings related to accusations against Schröder of complicity in crimes against humanity due to his role in Russian state-owned corporations. The CDU/CSU group demanded that Schröder be included in the European Union sanctions against individuals with ties to the Russian government. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Krasnol 3y ago
        > I don't know Michael Shillenbergers. You don't have to. It's a feature of the internet. BS spreads and everybody tries to make it look like they came up with it by themselves. > The Greens were always against nuclear. It's hypocritical to blame Merkel government as the phase out was planned decades before, Merkel initially wanted to delay it but was faced with protest and backlash from Greens. Seems you didn't read that much. Yes, the phase out was decided during the Schröder Government (where the Greens were also the minor party btw) but Merkel DID delay it. Then Fukushima happened, and the delay was history, with the same CDU politicians pushing for the end of nuclear. Merkel was in power for 16! years. She didn't stop it before Fukushima (only delayed it for a few years) and she didn't stop it years after Fukushima. The simple and plain reason for that is that nobody besides a fascist fringe party and their followers want it back. It's done and gone. It's one of the few things in this country where people are OK with it. Blaming "dem Greens" is ridiculous and yes, it shows that you are not German. You just have no idea. You ate up what Shillenberger fed you and the whole of the internet and just repeat it without bothering. > Renewables drastically expanded in Germany but if you look at the evolution of German energy matrix you will see that renewables mostly coupled with increased energy demand while nuclear phase out came at a cost of increased usage and reliance on natural gas which naturally comes from Russia. Besides the fact that renewables have expanded, everything about this paragraph is wrong and you know it which is why you didn't link to the whole page: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... Also: you might not have realized that but the explosion of NS was 2022 and the natural gas prices have recovered https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/PlattsContent/_assets/_images/latest-news/19633e18-4729-41d5-849b-99358aaa0cbc.svg https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/PlattsContent/_as... It's 2024, and you keep on repeating statements based upon fake news. Or as you say: "BS". We don't give a damn about Putins gas anymore. Neither in Germany nor in the rest of Europe. Stop spreading fake news.
- rasz 3y ago
  They also pushed against nuclear, but pro “low-carbon” hydrogen made using russian gas, and that was after russian invasion https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/revealed-how-germany-stepped-in-to-delay-eu-green-hydrogen-rules/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/revealed-how-ge...
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    Germany doesn't need nuclear. It had it replaced years ago with clean renewables you don't have to greenwash first in the same EU committees because your own taxpayer money can't come up with the subsidies required to keep it up, as Nuclear-France did.

trhway 3y ago

I'd venture a guess at least partially explaining it - Russia has been importing/cargo-culting German style of education, science, government, law, military, etc. for several centuries. Before 1917 like a half of the top of the Russian government and society was German. Lenin for example was half-German. The modern Russian language has developed during the last about 300 years, and the most closest/easiest non-Slavic European language for Russians is German. That all didn't make Russians into Germans, far for it, yet it lets Russians understand and mimicry the German style when needed (at least much easily than say French, English or Italian. Also kind of not surprising that the USSR was helping the revolution in Germany, and later the first 2 mega-totalitarian regimes happened to be Germany and USSR, and they were allies the first 2 years of WWII fighting together against democratic countries of Europe). And of course USSR had Eastern Germany for 40+ years - enough to develop deep networks and poison the minds.

int_19h 3y ago
> most closest/easiest non-Slavic European language for Russians is German. Speaking as a Russian, I find this assertion very questionable. Lithuanian and Latvian are far closer to East Slavic languages, for one thing. But even among West European languages, Spanish is easier IMO. In general, Russia borrowed a lot of science and engineering stuff from Germany, and definitely the military, but when it comes to governance - no, not really.
- trhway 3y ago
  Russia runs German law system, it is just the results are so different that one has hard time to believe that it is the same system. The same with governance - German modeled, just again with very different results. The Spanish is good contender, agree, though, German I think closer and historically provided more influence - there were no noticeable Spanish speaking, Spanish literature nor philosophy in Russia, while German speakers, German literature and philosophy were massively present.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    The political system in Russia is closer to France if anything. But that's all on paper - the reality for both the justice system and the political one is obviously quite different and not in any sense German. If we're talking about cultural influence, I'd also say that France had a lot more influence in that regard, especially literature-wise. French was a de facto standard "educated class" language for close to two centuries, with quite a few of the nobility learning it as their first language. But, again, culturally Russia is by and large its own thing. The way I'd describe it is a European-style facade covering some unholy merger of Byzantium (the way it was understood in Muscovy, not necessarily how it actually was) and the Golden Horde. The latter part goes all the way back to the Grand Duchy of Moscow; the former, mostly to Peter the Great.

dilyevsky 3y ago

s/naive/compromised/ <- fixed that for you

newsclues 3y ago

East Germany was occupied the USSR and America isn’t the only nation with stay behind networks.

int_19h 3y ago

It is rather telling that German has a specific term like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putinversteher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putinversteher