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The law requires Apple to open up iOS to 3rd-party browser engines and that Apple can't self-preference their own browser. This would mean that Apple has to ope

The law requires Apple to open up iOS to 3rd-party browser engines and that Apple can't self-preference their own browser. This would mean that Apple has to open up anything that Safari can do (like run PWAs). I don't believe for a minute that the EU is OK with the WebKit restriction here, they simply haven't responded: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39565553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39565553

lxgr 3y ago
We just don't know that at this point. For all we know, the EU might be considering PWAs a thing completely orthogonal to DMA compliance, since they neither provide feature parity with native apps, nor are they widely used (at least according to Apple's measurements). > open up anything that Safari can do (like run PWAs). I think it would be just as valid a viewpoint to consider them an OS feature (as opposed to a browser feature). The question then is whether that OS feature would be considered protected under the DMA. For example, it's also impossible to provide your own kernel extensions (e.g. to facilitate hardware device drivers) for iOS – but that's completely fine (as far as I understand) under the DMA, since it's not one of the covered areas like app stores, NFC payments etc. I'm not very certain of the last point, FWIW – maybe the DMA does actually require Apple to provide, on demand, access to hardware interfaces available to their own product offerings! For example, wireless (Qi) outbound charging is supported by recent iPhones, but only works with Apple's own Magsafe power bank, and other power banks can only do inbound wireless charging and need to be charged via USB – maybe that's actually noncompliant too? That would likely kill, or at least strongly impact, Apple's MFI program in the EU – or maybe just expand it to cover all first-party hardware interfaces too?
- summerlight 3y ago
  > For all we know, the EU might be considering PWAs a thing completely orthogonal to DMA compliance, since they neither provide feature parity with native apps, nor are they widely used (at least according to Apple's measurements). DMA wording made it very clear that it's about browser engine, not the browser product. And Safari is designated as a core platform service. > The gatekeeper shall not require end users to use, or business users to use, to offer, or to interoperate with, an identification service, a web browser engine or a payment service, or technical services that support the provision of payment services, such as payment systems for in-app purchases, of that gatekeeper in the context of services provided by the business users using that gatekeeper’s core platform services.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    > DMA wording made it very clear that it's about browser engine, not the browser product. Yes, but nowhere does it say explicitly that that third-party browser engine has to also be capable of hosting PWAs. It's definitely a possible read of the DMA, but not the only plausible one, in my view.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      It does: Clause 7 Article 6 of the DMA states: > The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper. > Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services.
robertoandred 3y ago
Are PWAs browsers?
- worksonmine 3y ago
  They're pretty much just shortcuts/bookmarks to a browser window yes. If I "install" a PWA from Firefox I expect it to open in Firefox. I would be very surprised if I ended up in Safari instead.
  - robertoandred 3y ago
    What happens to those PWAs when you uninstall Firefox?
    - dylan604 3y ago
      yeah, it should just open up in the default browser setting within the OS. having to create a shortcut based on which browser would be ridiculous. must like the post you were replying to was a ridiculously proposed comment.
      - worksonmine 3y ago
        > having to create a shortcut based on which browser would be ridiculous Depends how you look at it, Chromecast is only available from Chrome. If I want a specific page to open in Chrome because I use it mainly to cast videos should I have to switch my main browser to Chrome? Probably not how it works today and my initial comment didn't imply always open in Firefox even if not default browser, but thinking about it maybe that's how it should work, or the option to choose should be available?
  - int_19h 3y ago
    From the casual user's perspective, it does not "open in Firefox", though. It opens in a separate window with very different chrome, and you have to poke around to even determine which browser is actually hosting it. Furthermore, on macOS specifically, PWAs are fairly well decoupled from browsers. For example, if you install a PWA in Safari, and then click on an external link in said PWA, it will not open that link in Safari, but rather in whatever your default browser is.
shaky-carrousel 3y ago
Hopefully they'll respond with huge fines.

lxgr 3y ago

We just don't know that at this point. For all we know, the EU might be considering PWAs a thing completely orthogonal to DMA compliance, since they neither provide feature parity with native apps, nor are they widely used (at least according to Apple's measurements). > open up anything that Safari can do (like run PWAs). I think it would be just as valid a viewpoint to consider them an OS feature (as opposed to a browser feature). The question then is whether that OS feature would be considered protected under the DMA. For example, it's also impossible to provide your own kernel extensions (e.g. to facilitate hardware device drivers) for iOS – but that's completely fine (as far as I understand) under the DMA, since it's not one of the covered areas like app stores, NFC payments etc. I'm not very certain of the last point, FWIW – maybe the DMA does actually require Apple to provide, on demand, access to hardware interfaces available to their own product offerings! For example, wireless (Qi) outbound charging is supported by recent iPhones, but only works with Apple's own Magsafe power bank, and other power banks can only do inbound wireless charging and need to be charged via USB – maybe that's actually noncompliant too? That would likely kill, or at least strongly impact, Apple's MFI program in the EU – or maybe just expand it to cover all first-party hardware interfaces too?

summerlight 3y ago
> For all we know, the EU might be considering PWAs a thing completely orthogonal to DMA compliance, since they neither provide feature parity with native apps, nor are they widely used (at least according to Apple's measurements). DMA wording made it very clear that it's about browser engine, not the browser product. And Safari is designated as a core platform service. > The gatekeeper shall not require end users to use, or business users to use, to offer, or to interoperate with, an identification service, a web browser engine or a payment service, or technical services that support the provision of payment services, such as payment systems for in-app purchases, of that gatekeeper in the context of services provided by the business users using that gatekeeper’s core platform services.
- lxgr 3y ago
  > DMA wording made it very clear that it's about browser engine, not the browser product. Yes, but nowhere does it say explicitly that that third-party browser engine has to also be capable of hosting PWAs. It's definitely a possible read of the DMA, but not the only plausible one, in my view.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    It does: Clause 7 Article 6 of the DMA states: > The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper. > Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services.

robertoandred 3y ago

Are PWAs browsers?

worksonmine 3y ago
They're pretty much just shortcuts/bookmarks to a browser window yes. If I "install" a PWA from Firefox I expect it to open in Firefox. I would be very surprised if I ended up in Safari instead.
- robertoandred 3y ago
  What happens to those PWAs when you uninstall Firefox?
  - dylan604 3y ago
    yeah, it should just open up in the default browser setting within the OS. having to create a shortcut based on which browser would be ridiculous. must like the post you were replying to was a ridiculously proposed comment.
    - worksonmine 3y ago
      > having to create a shortcut based on which browser would be ridiculous Depends how you look at it, Chromecast is only available from Chrome. If I want a specific page to open in Chrome because I use it mainly to cast videos should I have to switch my main browser to Chrome? Probably not how it works today and my initial comment didn't imply always open in Firefox even if not default browser, but thinking about it maybe that's how it should work, or the option to choose should be available?
- int_19h 3y ago
  From the casual user's perspective, it does not "open in Firefox", though. It opens in a separate window with very different chrome, and you have to poke around to even determine which browser is actually hosting it. Furthermore, on macOS specifically, PWAs are fairly well decoupled from browsers. For example, if you install a PWA in Safari, and then click on an external link in said PWA, it will not open that link in Safari, but rather in whatever your default browser is.

shaky-carrousel 3y ago

Hopefully they'll respond with huge fines.