5 ms·

Employer and employee should be free to negotiate whatever arrangement is mutually agreeable. I don't think there needs to be any more to it than that

malux85 3y ago
Except most employers just do what everyone else does - and one might say “the market forces them to” but that’s total nonsense. Look at remote work, it was fairly uncommon in programming and very uncommon outside of programming. Then everyone was forced to do it with Covid and now it’s much more common because it works. Everyone was free to negotiate at any time before and after Covid, but anything that was even mildly radical would be met with a hard no. Simply because nobody else does it that way. I agree that it shouldn’t be mandated with laws, but I don’t agree that it should be left totally up to employer / employee because the power balance of negotiation still sits with the employer too much. Unfortunately I don’t know what the solution is, we need some external force that’s not as firm as a law to push a large number of companies to 4 days, what could that be I wonder… ?
- lzmibes 3y ago
  Did remote, partially remote, 3, 4 and 5 day weeks before COVID. It was always there. Did you ask? Do you need a union to ask for you?
  - piva00 3y ago
    No one said there wasn't, what was stated is that it wasn't common. Great for you to manage to find those gigs, it's not representative of the more general trend. It was always there, for a very few select opportunities. I only got 2 remote gigs for very early stage startups without an office before COVID (and I've been in this industry for 20 years), after it's been 70% of offers from recruiters telling me "we're remote friendly". Do you understand the difference? If you don't like unions, don't join one, you're free to do it, as others are free to associate and be part of one. If you don't like a unionised place you can always move to another job, it will always be there for you, no worries.
    - lzmibes 3y ago
      Wasn't hard to find. Repeatly. Coincidence perhaps... "Do I understand the difference?" Sure, the free market is favourable for some. Others stand to benefit more from collectivisation.
      - piva00 3y ago
        It wasn't hard to find for you. In the market you were looking for a job, at the time you were looking for a job, given that the vast majority of people weren't working remotely before can we agree that it wasn't common nor easy to find for a vast swath of the population? You seem to conflate your experience with the general experience, that's an extremely harmful bias to have since it signals you are unable to see the bigger picture, nor empathise with how others have very different life experiences... Again, great for you, it wasn't the common experience.
        lzmibes 3y ago
        [flagged]
        piva00 3y ago
        I simply do not understand your grudge against unions. You're absolutely free to not join one, I have no idea where you are from so can't understand the cultural aspect of your grudge. It's just really tiring to read the same non-sequitur repeated ad nauseum, yes, you do not like unions, I got that, what else do you have to say? Unions where I live are a central and core component of the labour market, the government does not interfere in the market, all employment contracts are established by employees and employers with the support of strong unions to provide the basics: minimum wage, working hours, additional benefits not covered by law, etc. That's a free market of labour, and the right of freedom of association working as intended. If you care to expand the discussion further than being edgy about unions we can have a meaningful chat, right now you just sound like a parrot.
        3y ago
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
piva00 3y ago
Let me know when both parties have equal power to come to the negotiation table on equal grounds, until then, nah.
vundercind 3y ago
When my failing to find a job for three months is no more painful to me than an employer failing to fill a role for three months, and when applying and interviewing takes so little of my attention that I can also do several other things at the same time (as a company is not paralyzed by conducting some interviews and reviewing some applications), sure. Since that will never happen—no.

malux85 3y ago

Except most employers just do what everyone else does - and one might say “the market forces them to” but that’s total nonsense. Look at remote work, it was fairly uncommon in programming and very uncommon outside of programming. Then everyone was forced to do it with Covid and now it’s much more common because it works. Everyone was free to negotiate at any time before and after Covid, but anything that was even mildly radical would be met with a hard no. Simply because nobody else does it that way. I agree that it shouldn’t be mandated with laws, but I don’t agree that it should be left totally up to employer / employee because the power balance of negotiation still sits with the employer too much. Unfortunately I don’t know what the solution is, we need some external force that’s not as firm as a law to push a large number of companies to 4 days, what could that be I wonder… ?

lzmibes 3y ago
Did remote, partially remote, 3, 4 and 5 day weeks before COVID. It was always there. Did you ask? Do you need a union to ask for you?
- piva00 3y ago
  No one said there wasn't, what was stated is that it wasn't common. Great for you to manage to find those gigs, it's not representative of the more general trend. It was always there, for a very few select opportunities. I only got 2 remote gigs for very early stage startups without an office before COVID (and I've been in this industry for 20 years), after it's been 70% of offers from recruiters telling me "we're remote friendly". Do you understand the difference? If you don't like unions, don't join one, you're free to do it, as others are free to associate and be part of one. If you don't like a unionised place you can always move to another job, it will always be there for you, no worries.
  - lzmibes 3y ago
    Wasn't hard to find. Repeatly. Coincidence perhaps... "Do I understand the difference?" Sure, the free market is favourable for some. Others stand to benefit more from collectivisation.
    - piva00 3y ago
      It wasn't hard to find for you. In the market you were looking for a job, at the time you were looking for a job, given that the vast majority of people weren't working remotely before can we agree that it wasn't common nor easy to find for a vast swath of the population? You seem to conflate your experience with the general experience, that's an extremely harmful bias to have since it signals you are unable to see the bigger picture, nor empathise with how others have very different life experiences... Again, great for you, it wasn't the common experience.
      - lzmibes 3y ago
        [flagged]
        piva00 3y ago
        I simply do not understand your grudge against unions. You're absolutely free to not join one, I have no idea where you are from so can't understand the cultural aspect of your grudge. It's just really tiring to read the same non-sequitur repeated ad nauseum, yes, you do not like unions, I got that, what else do you have to say? Unions where I live are a central and core component of the labour market, the government does not interfere in the market, all employment contracts are established by employees and employers with the support of strong unions to provide the basics: minimum wage, working hours, additional benefits not covered by law, etc. That's a free market of labour, and the right of freedom of association working as intended. If you care to expand the discussion further than being edgy about unions we can have a meaningful chat, right now you just sound like a parrot.
        3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

piva00 3y ago

Let me know when both parties have equal power to come to the negotiation table on equal grounds, until then, nah.

vundercind 3y ago

When my failing to find a job for three months is no more painful to me than an employer failing to fill a role for three months, and when applying and interviewing takes so little of my attention that I can also do several other things at the same time (as a company is not paralyzed by conducting some interviews and reviewing some applications), sure. Since that will never happen—no.