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> I agree, and I'd go as far as to say that the author is a bit confused and showing some confirmation bias. Let me explain. The author mostly cares about rot

> I agree, and I'd go as far as to say that the author is a bit confused and showing some confirmation bias. Let me explain. The author mostly cares about rot resistance in a window, though? New engineered wood products rarely help with this. We have treated wood, but if someone is making an exterior window they'll generally resort to using a rot resistant species (white oak, sapeeli, cedar in budget applications) that isn't the SPF we use in engineered lumber. I see this with my wooden windows from the 1990's - they're rotting and will have to be replaced wholesale. My wooden windows from pre-1960 on the other hand are restorable.

bluGill 3y ago
And in both your 1990s windows and your pre 1960s windows modern windows are so much better that you should replace those windows just for the better insulation value.
- VHRanger 3y ago
  You replace the glass for the insulation value. You don't need to (and shouldn't!!) replace a wooden frame. Replacing good wooden windows with vynil/aluminium windows is basically signing up to a subscription to the window company. You can't really restore that vynil crap, and the lifespan has a hard limit at 15 years when the double seal breaks. I'm just replacing the panes and restoring the wood. On the parts where the wood rotted out, I'm replacing the crappy cheap wood with rot resistant hardwoods. Modern windows aren't that much better. Window companies have good marketing. A 200 year old single pane window is R-1. Double pane is R-2, and with argon maybe R-3 or R-4.5 Triple pane is R-3 to R-6 depending, and vacuum sealed glass is R-4 to R-14(!!! But no one buys that). Changing an old window to a new one is often a stark difference because the old window leaked air. Not because the R-value is much lower. You can fix that with reglazing.
  - jajko 3y ago
    Not sure where you buy from but good quality plastic windows have definitely more than 15 years durability. Ie ours are 20 and no sign of weakening isolation. We have cca proper winters (maybe not this year) and thermal+humidity sensors in most rooms so a badly insulating window/door would be noticed quickly.
    - VHRanger 3y ago
      Can you explain what CCA is? I live in Ontario, I also have proper winters. It's not so much the plastic windows I bought than the ones previous owners did. The argon seal eventually fails with enough cold/hot cycles, or wear on the silicon seal, etc. If you're a diligent homeowner, you probably minimize the temperature cycles and take care of the seals, they might last 25-30 years (especially if it's good quality units). If I'm buying a new window I want something that I can repair and maintain for a long time. So it's wood frame for me, and specifically a rot resistant wood species if possible (not old growth, unless it's reclaimed)
      - JAlexoid 3y ago
        Do you not realize how long is 15 years? Or how long is 25-30? The windows in our house, Hudson Valley(NY), are at least 30 years(all mechanical parts are labelled as "pre-1994") - they are not showing much wear... considering that we get -20C to +30C swings every year.
        VHRanger 3y ago
        If you're paying $20k every 20 years, that averages out to a $80/month "window subscription" when itemized That said, my property is really old and has effectively all window types in one place or another. Because it had 15years of lack of maintenance I can see which are repairable, which aren't, and how fast each degraded. The really old windows aren't much of an issue (as OP said). Reglaze, reseal, performance is decent. Cheap wooden windows are more of a problem, but repairable and upgradeable. Cheap plastic windows have not fared well all. The plastic frame isn't in place due to heat/cold/UV exposure and they're a full replacement. They leak tremendous air and let bugs in. The aluminium windows have fared a lot better.
        jajko 3y ago
        I guess Swiss quality is simply Swiss quality. If your windows after 15 years leak bugs inside than my friend previous owner bought the cheapest of the cheapest possible from aliexpress of last decade(s), not even ultra cheap eastern European stuff is that bad that quickly. Overall, some folks love repairing old broken stuff (or need to due to financial circumstances). Most of us, our life satisfaction lies very much elsewhere and to spend our valuable remaining free time to just to learn properly and maintain such stuff that doesn't matter much in long run seems... unwise. Investing into relationships and intense experiences work generally better here. I see plenty of older folks who maintain their houses and garden around themselves (I mean proper gardens with fruits and veggies etc, not those uniform fugly mandatory US lawns). It takes so much of their energy that they have little time nor energy for some other serious hobbies, travel etc. Eventually in old age they can't keep up and its extremely depressing for them, since their effort is usually lost to their kids and they just get rid of that ol' house.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    I consider leaked air part of the r-value, but you are correct that is the real problem. It isn't just the windows, it is the seal between the window and frame, and the frame itself that are also problems. If you can fix old windows to be good - then good. I fully agree modern windows are not great, but R-2 is still better than 1.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    > the double seal breaks That's the seal between the panes of glass that make up the cartridge, has nothing to do with what the frame is made of. Replacing it when the seal fails is pretty trivial.
    - VHRanger 3y ago
      You're correct. But that's also the point at which people generally realize the plastic has cracked or bent and is leaking air, etc. etc.

bluGill 3y ago

And in both your 1990s windows and your pre 1960s windows modern windows are so much better that you should replace those windows just for the better insulation value.

VHRanger 3y ago
You replace the glass for the insulation value. You don't need to (and shouldn't!!) replace a wooden frame. Replacing good wooden windows with vynil/aluminium windows is basically signing up to a subscription to the window company. You can't really restore that vynil crap, and the lifespan has a hard limit at 15 years when the double seal breaks. I'm just replacing the panes and restoring the wood. On the parts where the wood rotted out, I'm replacing the crappy cheap wood with rot resistant hardwoods. Modern windows aren't that much better. Window companies have good marketing. A 200 year old single pane window is R-1. Double pane is R-2, and with argon maybe R-3 or R-4.5 Triple pane is R-3 to R-6 depending, and vacuum sealed glass is R-4 to R-14(!!! But no one buys that). Changing an old window to a new one is often a stark difference because the old window leaked air. Not because the R-value is much lower. You can fix that with reglazing.
- jajko 3y ago
  Not sure where you buy from but good quality plastic windows have definitely more than 15 years durability. Ie ours are 20 and no sign of weakening isolation. We have cca proper winters (maybe not this year) and thermal+humidity sensors in most rooms so a badly insulating window/door would be noticed quickly.
  - VHRanger 3y ago
    Can you explain what CCA is? I live in Ontario, I also have proper winters. It's not so much the plastic windows I bought than the ones previous owners did. The argon seal eventually fails with enough cold/hot cycles, or wear on the silicon seal, etc. If you're a diligent homeowner, you probably minimize the temperature cycles and take care of the seals, they might last 25-30 years (especially if it's good quality units). If I'm buying a new window I want something that I can repair and maintain for a long time. So it's wood frame for me, and specifically a rot resistant wood species if possible (not old growth, unless it's reclaimed)
    - JAlexoid 3y ago
      Do you not realize how long is 15 years? Or how long is 25-30? The windows in our house, Hudson Valley(NY), are at least 30 years(all mechanical parts are labelled as "pre-1994") - they are not showing much wear... considering that we get -20C to +30C swings every year.
      - VHRanger 3y ago
        If you're paying $20k every 20 years, that averages out to a $80/month "window subscription" when itemized That said, my property is really old and has effectively all window types in one place or another. Because it had 15years of lack of maintenance I can see which are repairable, which aren't, and how fast each degraded. The really old windows aren't much of an issue (as OP said). Reglaze, reseal, performance is decent. Cheap wooden windows are more of a problem, but repairable and upgradeable. Cheap plastic windows have not fared well all. The plastic frame isn't in place due to heat/cold/UV exposure and they're a full replacement. They leak tremendous air and let bugs in. The aluminium windows have fared a lot better.
        jajko 3y ago
        I guess Swiss quality is simply Swiss quality. If your windows after 15 years leak bugs inside than my friend previous owner bought the cheapest of the cheapest possible from aliexpress of last decade(s), not even ultra cheap eastern European stuff is that bad that quickly. Overall, some folks love repairing old broken stuff (or need to due to financial circumstances). Most of us, our life satisfaction lies very much elsewhere and to spend our valuable remaining free time to just to learn properly and maintain such stuff that doesn't matter much in long run seems... unwise. Investing into relationships and intense experiences work generally better here. I see plenty of older folks who maintain their houses and garden around themselves (I mean proper gardens with fruits and veggies etc, not those uniform fugly mandatory US lawns). It takes so much of their energy that they have little time nor energy for some other serious hobbies, travel etc. Eventually in old age they can't keep up and its extremely depressing for them, since their effort is usually lost to their kids and they just get rid of that ol' house.
- bluGill 3y ago
  I consider leaked air part of the r-value, but you are correct that is the real problem. It isn't just the windows, it is the seal between the window and frame, and the frame itself that are also problems. If you can fix old windows to be good - then good. I fully agree modern windows are not great, but R-2 is still better than 1.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > the double seal breaks That's the seal between the panes of glass that make up the cartridge, has nothing to do with what the frame is made of. Replacing it when the seal fails is pretty trivial.
  - VHRanger 3y ago
    You're correct. But that's also the point at which people generally realize the plastic has cracked or bent and is leaking air, etc. etc.