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>The fear of low-profitability is what drives that behavior Are you sure about that? Seems like a pretty bold statement where you would have to have some kind

>The fear of low-profitability is what drives that behavior Are you sure about that? Seems like a pretty bold statement where you would have to have some kind of inside information. I don't have anything to substantiate this but I would like to believe that Apple still has the best interest of it's customers and security in mind when fighting these kinds of legislation. I switched from Android to Apple BECAUSE of those restrictions and the improved security the walled garden model provides. The other reason was the middle finger Apple gave to the cell providers about applying firmware updates to their phones. When I was using Android it was maddening to wait months for an update to be 'approved' and able to install. That led me to rooting and installing firmware that was outside of the manufactures control and who knows what might have been in that. So for me everything that Apple does to keep a walled garden is what actually keeps me as a customer and helps their bottom line.

Zak 3y ago
It does not seem to me that anything about the DMA will make it difficult for people who prefer to stay inside Apple's walled garden to do so. Most Android users only install apps from the Play Store and use Chrome as their browser.
albert180 3y ago
Yeah, who knows what's inside of OpenSource Firmware like LineageOS. It's a huge mystery Also I never needed to wait for a carrier to approve an Update for my Android Phone. Neither for my Pixel, Nexus or Samsung Galaxy ones. And beside the "strict" controls, malicious Apps got in the App Store, and the iPhones themselves also pwned. Are there other Apple Fanboy Horror Stories about Android that you've missed?
smoldesu 3y ago
> Are you sure about that? Certain as I can be, without having seen the cards. Apple is a company about margins; you see it in their hardware profitability, but also in Tim Cook's service initiative. They fought Dutch regulators over this for months preceding the regulation, and it's not a stretch to say the DMA and DSA is a direct legislative response to Apple's wanton behavior. Apple can move literal mountains, when it aligns with their incentive of increasing profit margins. Anything that falls outside that purview ends up sidelined or worse-yet, lobbied against. > So for me everything that Apple does to keep a walled garden is what actually keeps me as a customer and helps their bottom line. That's great, and Apple has every right to provide you a differentiated experience. I've been a historical Apple customer, and I still keep a Magic Trackpad around because it's mostly quite good. But you and I aren't entitled to a sustained monopoly because it benefits us. Happy IE users or Bell Telephone customers aren't an argument against antitrust action, and it's ultimately entirely tangential to how legal they are. Consider how Apple behaves in hardware, sponsoring dubious Chinese labor to make shareholders happy. They set industry-leading profit margins by sparing no expense in their exploitation of labor and parts manufacturing. Is it legal? They say so. But of course Apple would, and they have no incentive to ever stop the squeeze if shareholders cheer them on. They will behave just as insidiously with software, and if you do not treat their every action with that scrutiny then you'll pave the road to hell with good intentions. I want businesses to be good people. I want God to run a killer froyo stand. But men are fickle, and Apple has been a swindling bastard of a company ever since Jobs cheated Woz out of $4,500 over an Atari contract.
- roamerz 3y ago
  > But you and I aren't entitled to a sustained monopoly because it benefits us. Does 20.1 percent market share constitute a monopoly?(2023 Forbes) Seems like people have plenty of choices of what kind of cell phone to purchase. >treat their every action with scrutiny Is that not what the free market does? When companies make poor choices customers punish them. (Budweiser 2023)
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    The issue isn't the size of Apple's market share, it's the tying between their hardware, the OS software, and app store, such that if you choose to buy their phone, you also are locked into their app store. Apple is not subject to market forces because Apple is not a capitalist entity, it is a feudalist one. It is not a merchant buying metal and glass to turn into phones, it is a feudal lord that has put a gate on the river that anyone passing buy has to pay 30% in order to open.
    - simondotau 3y ago
      > if you choose to buy their [device], you also are locked into their [software ecosystem]. Other than desktop computing, this describes nearly everything sold to consumers. For people in the Hacker News audience, desktop computing would feel like a gargantuan exception, but for most other people it isn't. Android is a partial exception, but one gets the sense from Google's recent behaviour that openness is an unwelcome vestige of its open source beginnings.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        It's not an exception. Binary distribution is the norm - Apple founded their business on that norm, found success in it, fostered it and continues to support it on MacOS. The App Store style of distribution is not a replacement for it, especially when the escape hatches for developers cost an annual fee and still has limitations. If it takes legislation to change that, so be it. This is not the future for computing that anyone wanted. If there's a good reason iOS can't run third-party software, now's the time to fix it. Otherwise, Apple might have to find a new economic zone to invest in.

Zak 3y ago

It does not seem to me that anything about the DMA will make it difficult for people who prefer to stay inside Apple's walled garden to do so. Most Android users only install apps from the Play Store and use Chrome as their browser.

albert180 3y ago

Yeah, who knows what's inside of OpenSource Firmware like LineageOS. It's a huge mystery Also I never needed to wait for a carrier to approve an Update for my Android Phone. Neither for my Pixel, Nexus or Samsung Galaxy ones. And beside the "strict" controls, malicious Apps got in the App Store, and the iPhones themselves also pwned. Are there other Apple Fanboy Horror Stories about Android that you've missed?

smoldesu 3y ago

> Are you sure about that? Certain as I can be, without having seen the cards. Apple is a company about margins; you see it in their hardware profitability, but also in Tim Cook's service initiative. They fought Dutch regulators over this for months preceding the regulation, and it's not a stretch to say the DMA and DSA is a direct legislative response to Apple's wanton behavior. Apple can move literal mountains, when it aligns with their incentive of increasing profit margins. Anything that falls outside that purview ends up sidelined or worse-yet, lobbied against. > So for me everything that Apple does to keep a walled garden is what actually keeps me as a customer and helps their bottom line. That's great, and Apple has every right to provide you a differentiated experience. I've been a historical Apple customer, and I still keep a Magic Trackpad around because it's mostly quite good. But you and I aren't entitled to a sustained monopoly because it benefits us. Happy IE users or Bell Telephone customers aren't an argument against antitrust action, and it's ultimately entirely tangential to how legal they are. Consider how Apple behaves in hardware, sponsoring dubious Chinese labor to make shareholders happy. They set industry-leading profit margins by sparing no expense in their exploitation of labor and parts manufacturing. Is it legal? They say so. But of course Apple would, and they have no incentive to ever stop the squeeze if shareholders cheer them on. They will behave just as insidiously with software, and if you do not treat their every action with that scrutiny then you'll pave the road to hell with good intentions. I want businesses to be good people. I want God to run a killer froyo stand. But men are fickle, and Apple has been a swindling bastard of a company ever since Jobs cheated Woz out of $4,500 over an Atari contract.

roamerz 3y ago
> But you and I aren't entitled to a sustained monopoly because it benefits us. Does 20.1 percent market share constitute a monopoly?(2023 Forbes) Seems like people have plenty of choices of what kind of cell phone to purchase. >treat their every action with scrutiny Is that not what the free market does? When companies make poor choices customers punish them. (Budweiser 2023)
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  The issue isn't the size of Apple's market share, it's the tying between their hardware, the OS software, and app store, such that if you choose to buy their phone, you also are locked into their app store. Apple is not subject to market forces because Apple is not a capitalist entity, it is a feudalist one. It is not a merchant buying metal and glass to turn into phones, it is a feudal lord that has put a gate on the river that anyone passing buy has to pay 30% in order to open.
  - simondotau 3y ago
    > if you choose to buy their [device], you also are locked into their [software ecosystem]. Other than desktop computing, this describes nearly everything sold to consumers. For people in the Hacker News audience, desktop computing would feel like a gargantuan exception, but for most other people it isn't. Android is a partial exception, but one gets the sense from Google's recent behaviour that openness is an unwelcome vestige of its open source beginnings.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      It's not an exception. Binary distribution is the norm - Apple founded their business on that norm, found success in it, fostered it and continues to support it on MacOS. The App Store style of distribution is not a replacement for it, especially when the escape hatches for developers cost an annual fee and still has limitations. If it takes legislation to change that, so be it. This is not the future for computing that anyone wanted. If there's a good reason iOS can't run third-party software, now's the time to fix it. Otherwise, Apple might have to find a new economic zone to invest in.