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> For normal construction tasks, I don't care one bit about this one bit. And you shouldn't either. I agree, and I'd go as far as to say that the author is a b

by foofie 3y ago

> For normal construction tasks, I don't care one bit about this one bit. And you shouldn't either. I agree, and I'd go as far as to say that the author is a bit confused and showing some confirmation bias. Let me explain. Engineered wood indeed creates elements from imperfect timber that are free from defects and exhibit the same engineering properties, if not better. This has absolutely zero to do with old vs new growth trees. It is exclusively due to the need to maximize the amount of wood you can take out of a tree. Old growth trees might have more wood to pick and choose from, but nothing stops anyone from using the exact same techniques with timber from old growth trees. The only reason why you don't see as much old growth trees in this process is the fact that there aren't that many anymore. Another reason why you see new growth trees being used extensively in engineered wood products is that you can put together massive structural elements from smaller lumber elements, and they are far cheaper and plentiful. There's a story on how the renovation of Oxford's dining halls required massive oak trees which were hard to come by, but it turned out those who built Oxford's dining halls had the foresight of planting oak trees when they built the structure. They did so because they knew the beams would eventually have to be renovated. https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-partnership/ https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-part... With engineered lumber you do not need to plan centuries ahead to have your structural elements. You just build the elements you need from the timber you have at your disposal.

VHRanger 3y ago
> I agree, and I'd go as far as to say that the author is a bit confused and showing some confirmation bias. Let me explain. The author mostly cares about rot resistance in a window, though? New engineered wood products rarely help with this. We have treated wood, but if someone is making an exterior window they'll generally resort to using a rot resistant species (white oak, sapeeli, cedar in budget applications) that isn't the SPF we use in engineered lumber. I see this with my wooden windows from the 1990's - they're rotting and will have to be replaced wholesale. My wooden windows from pre-1960 on the other hand are restorable.
- bluGill 3y ago
  And in both your 1990s windows and your pre 1960s windows modern windows are so much better that you should replace those windows just for the better insulation value.
  - VHRanger 3y ago
    You replace the glass for the insulation value. You don't need to (and shouldn't!!) replace a wooden frame. Replacing good wooden windows with vynil/aluminium windows is basically signing up to a subscription to the window company. You can't really restore that vynil crap, and the lifespan has a hard limit at 15 years when the double seal breaks. I'm just replacing the panes and restoring the wood. On the parts where the wood rotted out, I'm replacing the crappy cheap wood with rot resistant hardwoods. Modern windows aren't that much better. Window companies have good marketing. A 200 year old single pane window is R-1. Double pane is R-2, and with argon maybe R-3 or R-4.5 Triple pane is R-3 to R-6 depending, and vacuum sealed glass is R-4 to R-14(!!! But no one buys that). Changing an old window to a new one is often a stark difference because the old window leaked air. Not because the R-value is much lower. You can fix that with reglazing.
    - jajko 3y ago
      Not sure where you buy from but good quality plastic windows have definitely more than 15 years durability. Ie ours are 20 and no sign of weakening isolation. We have cca proper winters (maybe not this year) and thermal+humidity sensors in most rooms so a badly insulating window/door would be noticed quickly.
      - VHRanger 3y ago
        Can you explain what CCA is? I live in Ontario, I also have proper winters. It's not so much the plastic windows I bought than the ones previous owners did. The argon seal eventually fails with enough cold/hot cycles, or wear on the silicon seal, etc. If you're a diligent homeowner, you probably minimize the temperature cycles and take care of the seals, they might last 25-30 years (especially if it's good quality units). If I'm buying a new window I want something that I can repair and maintain for a long time. So it's wood frame for me, and specifically a rot resistant wood species if possible (not old growth, unless it's reclaimed)
shagie 3y ago
> Engineered wood indeed creates elements from imperfect timber that are free from defects and exhibit the same engineering properties, if not better. Tangent - some research from the '60s that shows the impact of the computer age on the timber industry: CROMAX - A Crosscut First Computer Simulation Program to Determine Cutting Yield (1963) https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA134223.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA134223.pdf Development of a Computer Method for Predicting Lumber Cutting Yields (1967) https://www.nrs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rp/rp_nc015.pdf https://www.nrs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rp/rp_nc015.pdf Veneer Recovery Prediction and Analysis Through Computer Simulation (1969) https://wfs.swst.org/index.php/wfs/article/view/398/398 https://wfs.swst.org/index.php/wfs/article/view/398/398 Note that these are not frequently referenced PDFs and I occasionally had difficulty with the first click for them. --- > There's a story on how the renovation of Oxford's dining halls ... https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-partnership/ https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-part... > In all likelihood, the story is a blend of myth and reality. While the College, in keeping with standard woodland practices in Britain, has always kept groves of oaks intended for construction purposes, it isn’t clear that any particular set of trees was officially designated to replace the beams of the College dining hall Another example (more grounded in modern times and less myth)... https://www.military.com/history/why-us-navy-manages-its-own-private-forest.html https://www.military.com/history/why-us-navy-manages-its-own... https://www.oldsaltblog.com/2020/11/constitution-grove-the-navys-white-oak-forest-on-a-high-tech-base/ https://www.oldsaltblog.com/2020/11/constitution-grove-the-n... https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/05/11/the-wooden-walls/ https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/05/11/the-wooden-wall...

by foofie 3y ago

VHRanger 3y ago

> I agree, and I'd go as far as to say that the author is a bit confused and showing some confirmation bias. Let me explain. The author mostly cares about rot resistance in a window, though? New engineered wood products rarely help with this. We have treated wood, but if someone is making an exterior window they'll generally resort to using a rot resistant species (white oak, sapeeli, cedar in budget applications) that isn't the SPF we use in engineered lumber. I see this with my wooden windows from the 1990's - they're rotting and will have to be replaced wholesale. My wooden windows from pre-1960 on the other hand are restorable.

bluGill 3y ago
And in both your 1990s windows and your pre 1960s windows modern windows are so much better that you should replace those windows just for the better insulation value.
- VHRanger 3y ago
  You replace the glass for the insulation value. You don't need to (and shouldn't!!) replace a wooden frame. Replacing good wooden windows with vynil/aluminium windows is basically signing up to a subscription to the window company. You can't really restore that vynil crap, and the lifespan has a hard limit at 15 years when the double seal breaks. I'm just replacing the panes and restoring the wood. On the parts where the wood rotted out, I'm replacing the crappy cheap wood with rot resistant hardwoods. Modern windows aren't that much better. Window companies have good marketing. A 200 year old single pane window is R-1. Double pane is R-2, and with argon maybe R-3 or R-4.5 Triple pane is R-3 to R-6 depending, and vacuum sealed glass is R-4 to R-14(!!! But no one buys that). Changing an old window to a new one is often a stark difference because the old window leaked air. Not because the R-value is much lower. You can fix that with reglazing.
  - jajko 3y ago
    Not sure where you buy from but good quality plastic windows have definitely more than 15 years durability. Ie ours are 20 and no sign of weakening isolation. We have cca proper winters (maybe not this year) and thermal+humidity sensors in most rooms so a badly insulating window/door would be noticed quickly.
    - VHRanger 3y ago
      Can you explain what CCA is? I live in Ontario, I also have proper winters. It's not so much the plastic windows I bought than the ones previous owners did. The argon seal eventually fails with enough cold/hot cycles, or wear on the silicon seal, etc. If you're a diligent homeowner, you probably minimize the temperature cycles and take care of the seals, they might last 25-30 years (especially if it's good quality units). If I'm buying a new window I want something that I can repair and maintain for a long time. So it's wood frame for me, and specifically a rot resistant wood species if possible (not old growth, unless it's reclaimed)

shagie 3y ago

> Engineered wood indeed creates elements from imperfect timber that are free from defects and exhibit the same engineering properties, if not better. Tangent - some research from the '60s that shows the impact of the computer age on the timber industry: CROMAX - A Crosscut First Computer Simulation Program to Determine Cutting Yield (1963) https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA134223.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA134223.pdf Development of a Computer Method for Predicting Lumber Cutting Yields (1967) https://www.nrs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rp/rp_nc015.pdf https://www.nrs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rp/rp_nc015.pdf Veneer Recovery Prediction and Analysis Through Computer Simulation (1969) https://wfs.swst.org/index.php/wfs/article/view/398/398 https://wfs.swst.org/index.php/wfs/article/view/398/398 Note that these are not frequently referenced PDFs and I occasionally had difficulty with the first click for them. --- > There's a story on how the renovation of Oxford's dining halls ... https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-partnership/ https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-part... > In all likelihood, the story is a blend of myth and reality. While the College, in keeping with standard woodland practices in Britain, has always kept groves of oaks intended for construction purposes, it isn’t clear that any particular set of trees was officially designated to replace the beams of the College dining hall Another example (more grounded in modern times and less myth)... https://www.military.com/history/why-us-navy-manages-its-own-private-forest.html https://www.military.com/history/why-us-navy-manages-its-own... https://www.oldsaltblog.com/2020/11/constitution-grove-the-navys-white-oak-forest-on-a-high-tech-base/ https://www.oldsaltblog.com/2020/11/constitution-grove-the-n... https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/05/11/the-wooden-walls/ https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/05/11/the-wooden-wall...