5 ms·

The point of a 4-day work week isn't to cram the 5th day into 4 days, it's completely removing the 5th day, thus working 8 hours every day for 4 days, as oppose

The point of a 4-day work week isn't to cram the 5th day into 4 days, it's completely removing the 5th day, thus working 8 hours every day for 4 days, as opposed to 10 hours for 5 days.

pjerem 3y ago
Yes, also without reducing salaries.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Question: If they removed the 5th work day and the same amount of work got done, then management can say that basically the employees were slacking off for a day a week. And if so, what's stopping them next to increase it back to 5 and chase 5 days worth of productivity out of 5 days/week instead of the previous 4 using the same efficiency gains as performance benchmarks of the 4 days/week?
- vidarh 3y ago
  They can try. They will fail. If people could maintain that higher performance without suffering at a level people aren't willing to, many would.
- captainbland 3y ago
  I suppose the same forces that usually prevent a move from a 5 day week up to a 6 day week: it's unpopular and counterproductive. But I wouldn't be opposed to a 4 day week being privileged in law somehow.
- bongodongobob 3y ago
  For knowledge workers, being 100% productive for 8 hours a day 5 days a week is a lie. I don't think anyone can truly deep focus 8 hours a day without burning out at some point.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >For knowledge workers, being 100% productive for 8 hours a day 5 days a week is a lie. Of course, but if this is a known fact, why are we still working 5 days a week as the norm and not 4? Clearly inertia is more important to companies and legislators than facts. Or that probably not all jobs are so leisurely and inefficient, that 5 days of actual productivity can be don in less.
    - hananova 3y ago
      Many of us only work 5 days a week officially, there's many of us that deliberately and knowingly slack off one day a week. Others will just slow down a little to fill the five days. Yet others will use WFH as an opportunity to do a 4 day work week.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        > there's many of us that deliberately and knowingly slack off one day a week Many? I doubt it. Maybe many very privileged tech/big-corp workers in developed rich western countries, but globally that's not that many. Your argument is exactly the argument companies use to justify not going 4 days a week. If workers already have it so good that they have free time to slack off one day out of 5 days per week what's to say they also won't slack off for a day at 4 days per week once that becomes the norm? Don't get me wrong I'd be al for it, but your comment proves many already have it so much better even at 5 days/week.
        bongodongobob 3y ago
        You have a choice. Work at 100%, 60% of the time, or work at 60% 100% of the time. It's not slacking off, it's managing mental health and endurance. You're not at 100% all the time. You're lying to yourself if you think you are. You may be spinning the tires, but the car isn't going as fast as you think it is.
- jerf 3y ago
  The fact they already tried 5 days a week and it apparently didn't work. Why would anything be any different when going back? It reminds me of the way that as we improve in our ability to automate laws, we're going to need to do a better job of thinking about what laws are for rather than assuming that simply reifying the current laws exactly into computerized enforcement will do what we expect: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094010 Just because a butt is in a seat does not mean a butt is doing work. It wasn't true before, it isn't true now, and it won't be true if they try to squeeze another day out at the new efficiency levels. It may be a common delusion but there is no magic path to that level of productivity.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >The fact they already tried 5 days a week and it apparently didn't work. How didn't it work? Probably the devie you're typing this on was made by a person working 5 days/week, or way more if we're talking early iOS /Android devices.
    - jerf 3y ago
      I am speaking in the context of your own assumption in your post, that previously people were only doing 4 days of work in a 5 day week, so there's some option of getting people to work 5 days a week at the 4-day-a-week pace. Please don't equivocate on your own terminology for the purpose of hostilely misunderstanding my reply. If you're going to roll with "actually people have in fact been productively working 5 days a week after all" than I would advise FirmwareBurner of 6 minutes ago to take the debate up with FirmwareBurner of 1 hour ago. I don't see that I'd add any value in mediating that discussion.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        I'm sorry, Your comment makes no sense to me.
        zen928 3y ago
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  If they made you work 24 hours a day and your work output didn't triple, then management can say that basically the employees were slacking off. And obviously people won't dying because they're sleep deprived but because they're lazy. Management can say anything, it doesn't make it true.
j45 3y ago
To you. In manufacturing industries this type of schedule is quite common. Not all industries are like tech or will follow it. Companies that won’t do 4 days (32h) per week might do a slightly longer day instead. Maybe 9 hours worked with an hour lunch Being paid for less hours (32) per week for 4 days is fine too.

The point of a 4-day work week isn't to cram the 5th day into 4 days, it's completely removing the 5th day, thus working 8 hours every day for 4 days, as opposed to 10 hours for 5 days.

pjerem 3y ago

Yes, also without reducing salaries.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Question: If they removed the 5th work day and the same amount of work got done, then management can say that basically the employees were slacking off for a day a week. And if so, what's stopping them next to increase it back to 5 and chase 5 days worth of productivity out of 5 days/week instead of the previous 4 using the same efficiency gains as performance benchmarks of the 4 days/week?

vidarh 3y ago
They can try. They will fail. If people could maintain that higher performance without suffering at a level people aren't willing to, many would.
captainbland 3y ago
I suppose the same forces that usually prevent a move from a 5 day week up to a 6 day week: it's unpopular and counterproductive. But I wouldn't be opposed to a 4 day week being privileged in law somehow.
bongodongobob 3y ago
For knowledge workers, being 100% productive for 8 hours a day 5 days a week is a lie. I don't think anyone can truly deep focus 8 hours a day without burning out at some point.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >For knowledge workers, being 100% productive for 8 hours a day 5 days a week is a lie. Of course, but if this is a known fact, why are we still working 5 days a week as the norm and not 4? Clearly inertia is more important to companies and legislators than facts. Or that probably not all jobs are so leisurely and inefficient, that 5 days of actual productivity can be don in less.
  - hananova 3y ago
    Many of us only work 5 days a week officially, there's many of us that deliberately and knowingly slack off one day a week. Others will just slow down a little to fill the five days. Yet others will use WFH as an opportunity to do a 4 day work week.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      > there's many of us that deliberately and knowingly slack off one day a week Many? I doubt it. Maybe many very privileged tech/big-corp workers in developed rich western countries, but globally that's not that many. Your argument is exactly the argument companies use to justify not going 4 days a week. If workers already have it so good that they have free time to slack off one day out of 5 days per week what's to say they also won't slack off for a day at 4 days per week once that becomes the norm? Don't get me wrong I'd be al for it, but your comment proves many already have it so much better even at 5 days/week.
      - bongodongobob 3y ago
        You have a choice. Work at 100%, 60% of the time, or work at 60% 100% of the time. It's not slacking off, it's managing mental health and endurance. You're not at 100% all the time. You're lying to yourself if you think you are. You may be spinning the tires, but the car isn't going as fast as you think it is.
jerf 3y ago
The fact they already tried 5 days a week and it apparently didn't work. Why would anything be any different when going back? It reminds me of the way that as we improve in our ability to automate laws, we're going to need to do a better job of thinking about what laws are for rather than assuming that simply reifying the current laws exactly into computerized enforcement will do what we expect: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17094010 Just because a butt is in a seat does not mean a butt is doing work. It wasn't true before, it isn't true now, and it won't be true if they try to squeeze another day out at the new efficiency levels. It may be a common delusion but there is no magic path to that level of productivity.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The fact they already tried 5 days a week and it apparently didn't work. How didn't it work? Probably the devie you're typing this on was made by a person working 5 days/week, or way more if we're talking early iOS /Android devices.
  - jerf 3y ago
    I am speaking in the context of your own assumption in your post, that previously people were only doing 4 days of work in a 5 day week, so there's some option of getting people to work 5 days a week at the 4-day-a-week pace. Please don't equivocate on your own terminology for the purpose of hostilely misunderstanding my reply. If you're going to roll with "actually people have in fact been productively working 5 days a week after all" than I would advise FirmwareBurner of 6 minutes ago to take the debate up with FirmwareBurner of 1 hour ago. I don't see that I'd add any value in mediating that discussion.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      I'm sorry, Your comment makes no sense to me.
      - zen928 3y ago
maximus-decimus 3y ago
If they made you work 24 hours a day and your work output didn't triple, then management can say that basically the employees were slacking off. And obviously people won't dying because they're sleep deprived but because they're lazy. Management can say anything, it doesn't make it true.

j45 3y ago

To you. In manufacturing industries this type of schedule is quite common. Not all industries are like tech or will follow it. Companies that won’t do 4 days (32h) per week might do a slightly longer day instead. Maybe 9 hours worked with an hour lunch Being paid for less hours (32) per week for 4 days is fine too.