5 ms·

As a long-time front-end developer, I'm not seeing a strong value proposition here to justify the further fragmentation another package registry is going to cau

by m3h 3y ago

As a long-time front-end developer, I'm not seeing a strong value proposition here to justify the further fragmentation another package registry is going to cause. > You publish TypeScript source, and JSR handles generating API docs, .d.ts files, and transpiling your code for cross-runtime compatibility. This sounds like another building service I don't control. There's already too much magic in publishing transpiled TypeScript packages but at least the current tools let me control exactly what artifacts get pushed out. > web-standard ECMAScript modules The "web standard" part is meaningless considering that most production websites will bundle the files together as part of their build/optimization process for size and loading speed, leaving only a giant chunk(s) that resembles nothing like the original ES modules. > JSR isn't a replacement for the npm registry; it's a superset of npm. A super of npm means that the packages created for this repository will not work in the npm ecosystem. What is this if not a "replacement" of the npm registry and further fragmentation of the JS ecosystem? >JSR modules can be used with any JavaScript package manager, and in any project with a node_modules folder. This makes the already complicated module resolution logic in most bundler/packaging tools even more complicated as they must account for the intricacies of another package manager. A house of cards being stacked on another house of cards... > Module authors can count on great editor support from strongly typed modules, without the need to transpile and distribute typings manually. The website seems to insist that distributing typings is a complicated process when it is just the .d.ts files bundled with the published package and an additional entry in the package.json file. > Easy publishing with a single command - the CLI will walk you through the rest It seems like every benefit that this project offers can be fixed in the current ecosystem by better client-side tooling that enforces standards during the publishing process while keeping full backward compatibility with over a decade of packages published and without fragmenting the ecosystem.

m3h 3y ago
Another comment in the thread makes a very good point: > Man, if only they'd debuted with this, but, hindsight and all. My only thing is that TypeScript has no spec, standard, or competing implementations so it seems a bit risky to treat it as a first-class citizen as far as publishing packages goes. Add to that the frequent compilation issues that happen as TypeScript adds or removes types in the global imports, changes language conventions, and updates compilation checks whenever a new version gets released.
- lucacasonato 3y ago
  Look at the comment under the comment you mention - those issues are about the TS type system, NOT the TS syntax. TS syntax is highly stable, and is the only thing JSR relies on :)
  - seniorsassycat 3y ago
    How is that true if the npm compatibility layer serves compiled js and .d.ts files?
    - lucacasonato 3y ago
      Both `.d.ts` and `.js` files can be created without understanding the TS type system (this is what JSR does). Creating both of those is just a TS syntax transform - one that is highly stable (esbuild and friends all do it already).
      - seniorsassycat 3y ago
        I know .is can be emitted as an ast transformation, but I'm surprised by d.ts files. Even inferred types?
        mhagemeister 3y ago
        We do some basic inference, but that's why we require explicit return types in the public API, see https://jsr.io/docs/about-slow-types https://jsr.io/docs/about-slow-types . TypeScript itself will ship with a new `isolatedDeclarations` option in the next release which is the same thing. The point is that no inference other than simple literal inference needs to be done to get the type of the public API. That way generating .d.ts files can be done by any tool by merely looking at the syntax without type inference.
mhagemeister 3y ago
> This makes the already complicated module resolution logic in most bundler/packaging tools even more complicated as they must account for the intricacies of another package manager. A house of cards being stacked on another house of cards... JSR is a registry, not a package manager. npm allows you to add multiple registries and JSR provides an npm API endpoint. From npm's point of view packages coming from JSR are the same as those coming from the npm registry itself. The only difference is where the package is coming from, but all semver resolution, etc are done as usual by whatever package manager you use. Disclaimer: I wrote a good portion of the npm tarball generation code.
- seniorsassycat 3y ago
  I'm really curious how you handle typescript versions and options that affect emit
  - lucacasonato 3y ago
    - `isolatedModules: true` is required - Decorators: standard spec decorators only - JSX: tsconfig options are lifted into JSX pragma comments on publish (configuration goes into code so that consumers can emit based on these options still) TypeScript has very very few options that affect emit, and effectively everyone has settled on one subset now.
    - notnullorvoid 3y ago
      > TypeScript has very very few options that affect emit, and effectively everyone has settled on one subset now. Very confused by this statement. There's lots of options that affect emit. And what do you mean a subset has been settled on? Take any 2 TypeScript projects and I'd wager there's a high chance they have options that emit code differently. Config aside TS emits .d.ts that is not always backwards compatible with older TS versions. Does jsr support typeVersions for such situations?
no_way 3y ago
> The "web standard" part is meaningless considering that most production websites will bundle the files together as part of their build/optimization process for size and loading speed, leaving only a giant chunk(s) that resembles nothing like the original ES modules. I mean code itself will be non readable, but in modern build ouput chunks are using regular esm modules, at least for Vite, Rollup, Parcel and so on. Webpack might be different story, but still.
lucacasonato 3y ago
> This sounds like another building service I don't control. There's already too much magic in publishing transpiled TypeScript packages but at least the current tools let me control exactly what artifacts get pushed out. For tools that natively support TypeScript, you can directly consume the TypeScript source code. No transpilation necessary. The complexities are only introduced (well not really introduced, just moved somewhere else) for tools that do not natively support JS. > The "web standard" part is meaningless considering that most production websites will bundle the files together as part of their build/optimization process for size and loading speed, leaving only a giant chunk(s) that resembles nothing like the original ES modules. That doesn't matter. If everyone settles on one standard, even if you do post process, tools become simpler. The idea is not that you must ship your code unbundled to the browser. It is to reduce the amount of complexity incurred in the process from source -> dist. I am sure you agree that the lower the difference between source and dist, the easier debugging and developement in general are :) > A super of npm means that the packages created for this repository will not work in the npm ecosystem. What is this if not a "replacement" of the npm registry and further fragmentation of the JS ecosystem? They do work in npm. In npm packages you can depend on JSR packages, and on JSR you can depend on npm packages. > This makes the already complicated module resolution logic in most bundler/packaging tools even more complicated as they must account for the intricacies of another package manager. A house of cards being stacked on another house of cards... Nope! JSR is not a package manager. JSR is only a runtime. When you install into a node_modules folder, the layout in this folder is the same between JSR and npm packages. So any downstream tool does not even need to know JSR is in the loop - it just works. This is one of the key points to ensure easy adoption of JSR by anyone. > It seems like every benefit that this project offers can be fixed in the current ecosystem by better client-side tooling that enforces standards during the publishing process while keeping full backward compatibility with over a decade of packages published and without fragmenting the ecosystem. I understand this. The problem is the following: npm is owned by GitHub/Microsoft, and GitHub/Microsoft does not care about npm. To GitHub, npm is a cost center. npm has no dedicated product manager at GitHub. Last I heard, npm has _two_ dedicated engineers working on it. The last real new feature npm shipped was package provenance (last year). It took npm 5 years to ship the file browser (because GitHub/Microsoft did not care about npm, and thus effectively froze all feature dev work on npm). If we want innovation in the space, we need to do it in a way that a) keeps backwards compat with npm (which JSR does, both ways), but b) we need to move away from npm in the long term. JSR is an attempt at this (while trying to stay within the constraints posed).
WorldMaker 3y ago
In addition to some of the other answers already: 1. The focus on typescript and typings distribution is useful/interesting for the "promise" that all packages in the registry have typings. If you can trust that every package in JSR has types then you avoid/simplify that current cycle of: npm install a package, find out it doesn't have types, try to install a package of the same name with @types/ in front of it, find out it doesn't exist, look for an alternative library with types or write your own types or give up and `declare module "thatpackagename"` any-type it. 2. Just because "most" production websites do bundling doesn't mean that needs to still be the status quo in 2024. Bundling is increasingly a "premature optimization" and you might not need it. It can be worth investigating if your site/app works well enough with just ESM delivered straight to browsers in 2024 versus what you "gain" from bundling. You might be surprised at how well current browsers can load ESM and the optimizations they already do for you. But even if you do still need bundling ESM is a huge advantage over other formats (especially CommonJS) and every current bundler produces better, more optimized output the more ESM you provide. Their outputs also increasingly look like ESM, and if that isn't the current default it is the "soon" default. esbuild in particular (which also backs some of vite's tools and others) has an ESM bundle output that is delightful, isn't yet the default ("soon") but is a simple "format" switch away. Those ESM bundles are great in today's browsers. ESM matters a lot to bundlers, bundlers are increasingly ESM in their internals and output. Browsers are great with ESM. The "web-standard" part is pretty meaningful today and getting stronger.
- wruza 3y ago
  Where can one read up on [2.]?
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    I got into some details on how I do light-weight apps (especially during development) without bundling in a nearby comment as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564986 To resummarize: sometimes it is fine to prune and ship node_modules to your web server, you can use import maps to handle "node-style 'bare' imports", and you may only need to "spot bundle" to ESM a single dependent library or two that doesn't ship ESM that will directly work in the browser (which should be a decreasing list). After that it's a matter of using your browser's Dev Tools to tell you what your performance looks like and where your bottlenecks are. That can tell you a lot to help you determine if you really need to bundle more of your site/app or if you can spot-bundle/adjust an import map for just a specific sub-graph. With HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 the "per-file" "penalty" is a lot less, though still somewhat exists. Even some properly configured HTTP/1.1 servers it is not always as bad as history tells us it was (properly configured HTTP/1.1 did support some connection sharing). About the only remaining thing a bundle might buy you on HTTP/2+ is maybe better behavior with compression on the bundle as a single whole, but even that isn't a given because Brotli's dictionary was designed to work at the whole connection level and that's often the default compression in HTTP/2+. But again, your conditions may vary based on your real code and the specific servers and browsers you need to support, so leverage your browser Dev Tools and check the real numbers.
lakpan 3y ago
You’re 110% on point. Publishing is too complicated? Let’s add something else: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ This is all node and npm’s fault, they’re sinking billions of dollars of developer time worldwide and they should be called out on it.

by m3h 3y ago

m3h 3y ago

Another comment in the thread makes a very good point: > Man, if only they'd debuted with this, but, hindsight and all. My only thing is that TypeScript has no spec, standard, or competing implementations so it seems a bit risky to treat it as a first-class citizen as far as publishing packages goes. Add to that the frequent compilation issues that happen as TypeScript adds or removes types in the global imports, changes language conventions, and updates compilation checks whenever a new version gets released.

lucacasonato 3y ago
Look at the comment under the comment you mention - those issues are about the TS type system, NOT the TS syntax. TS syntax is highly stable, and is the only thing JSR relies on :)
- seniorsassycat 3y ago
  How is that true if the npm compatibility layer serves compiled js and .d.ts files?
  - lucacasonato 3y ago
    Both `.d.ts` and `.js` files can be created without understanding the TS type system (this is what JSR does). Creating both of those is just a TS syntax transform - one that is highly stable (esbuild and friends all do it already).
    - seniorsassycat 3y ago
      I know .is can be emitted as an ast transformation, but I'm surprised by d.ts files. Even inferred types?
      - mhagemeister 3y ago
        We do some basic inference, but that's why we require explicit return types in the public API, see https://jsr.io/docs/about-slow-types https://jsr.io/docs/about-slow-types . TypeScript itself will ship with a new `isolatedDeclarations` option in the next release which is the same thing. The point is that no inference other than simple literal inference needs to be done to get the type of the public API. That way generating .d.ts files can be done by any tool by merely looking at the syntax without type inference.

mhagemeister 3y ago

> This makes the already complicated module resolution logic in most bundler/packaging tools even more complicated as they must account for the intricacies of another package manager. A house of cards being stacked on another house of cards... JSR is a registry, not a package manager. npm allows you to add multiple registries and JSR provides an npm API endpoint. From npm's point of view packages coming from JSR are the same as those coming from the npm registry itself. The only difference is where the package is coming from, but all semver resolution, etc are done as usual by whatever package manager you use. Disclaimer: I wrote a good portion of the npm tarball generation code.

seniorsassycat 3y ago
I'm really curious how you handle typescript versions and options that affect emit
- lucacasonato 3y ago
  - `isolatedModules: true` is required - Decorators: standard spec decorators only - JSX: tsconfig options are lifted into JSX pragma comments on publish (configuration goes into code so that consumers can emit based on these options still) TypeScript has very very few options that affect emit, and effectively everyone has settled on one subset now.
  - notnullorvoid 3y ago
    > TypeScript has very very few options that affect emit, and effectively everyone has settled on one subset now. Very confused by this statement. There's lots of options that affect emit. And what do you mean a subset has been settled on? Take any 2 TypeScript projects and I'd wager there's a high chance they have options that emit code differently. Config aside TS emits .d.ts that is not always backwards compatible with older TS versions. Does jsr support typeVersions for such situations?

no_way 3y ago

> The "web standard" part is meaningless considering that most production websites will bundle the files together as part of their build/optimization process for size and loading speed, leaving only a giant chunk(s) that resembles nothing like the original ES modules. I mean code itself will be non readable, but in modern build ouput chunks are using regular esm modules, at least for Vite, Rollup, Parcel and so on. Webpack might be different story, but still.

lucacasonato 3y ago

> This sounds like another building service I don't control. There's already too much magic in publishing transpiled TypeScript packages but at least the current tools let me control exactly what artifacts get pushed out. For tools that natively support TypeScript, you can directly consume the TypeScript source code. No transpilation necessary. The complexities are only introduced (well not really introduced, just moved somewhere else) for tools that do not natively support JS. > The "web standard" part is meaningless considering that most production websites will bundle the files together as part of their build/optimization process for size and loading speed, leaving only a giant chunk(s) that resembles nothing like the original ES modules. That doesn't matter. If everyone settles on one standard, even if you do post process, tools become simpler. The idea is not that you must ship your code unbundled to the browser. It is to reduce the amount of complexity incurred in the process from source -> dist. I am sure you agree that the lower the difference between source and dist, the easier debugging and developement in general are :) > A super of npm means that the packages created for this repository will not work in the npm ecosystem. What is this if not a "replacement" of the npm registry and further fragmentation of the JS ecosystem? They do work in npm. In npm packages you can depend on JSR packages, and on JSR you can depend on npm packages. > This makes the already complicated module resolution logic in most bundler/packaging tools even more complicated as they must account for the intricacies of another package manager. A house of cards being stacked on another house of cards... Nope! JSR is not a package manager. JSR is only a runtime. When you install into a node_modules folder, the layout in this folder is the same between JSR and npm packages. So any downstream tool does not even need to know JSR is in the loop - it just works. This is one of the key points to ensure easy adoption of JSR by anyone. > It seems like every benefit that this project offers can be fixed in the current ecosystem by better client-side tooling that enforces standards during the publishing process while keeping full backward compatibility with over a decade of packages published and without fragmenting the ecosystem. I understand this. The problem is the following: npm is owned by GitHub/Microsoft, and GitHub/Microsoft does not care about npm. To GitHub, npm is a cost center. npm has no dedicated product manager at GitHub. Last I heard, npm has _two_ dedicated engineers working on it. The last real new feature npm shipped was package provenance (last year). It took npm 5 years to ship the file browser (because GitHub/Microsoft did not care about npm, and thus effectively froze all feature dev work on npm). If we want innovation in the space, we need to do it in a way that a) keeps backwards compat with npm (which JSR does, both ways), but b) we need to move away from npm in the long term. JSR is an attempt at this (while trying to stay within the constraints posed).

WorldMaker 3y ago

In addition to some of the other answers already: 1. The focus on typescript and typings distribution is useful/interesting for the "promise" that all packages in the registry have typings. If you can trust that every package in JSR has types then you avoid/simplify that current cycle of: npm install a package, find out it doesn't have types, try to install a package of the same name with @types/ in front of it, find out it doesn't exist, look for an alternative library with types or write your own types or give up and `declare module "thatpackagename"` any-type it. 2. Just because "most" production websites do bundling doesn't mean that needs to still be the status quo in 2024. Bundling is increasingly a "premature optimization" and you might not need it. It can be worth investigating if your site/app works well enough with just ESM delivered straight to browsers in 2024 versus what you "gain" from bundling. You might be surprised at how well current browsers can load ESM and the optimizations they already do for you. But even if you do still need bundling ESM is a huge advantage over other formats (especially CommonJS) and every current bundler produces better, more optimized output the more ESM you provide. Their outputs also increasingly look like ESM, and if that isn't the current default it is the "soon" default. esbuild in particular (which also backs some of vite's tools and others) has an ESM bundle output that is delightful, isn't yet the default ("soon") but is a simple "format" switch away. Those ESM bundles are great in today's browsers. ESM matters a lot to bundlers, bundlers are increasingly ESM in their internals and output. Browsers are great with ESM. The "web-standard" part is pretty meaningful today and getting stronger.

wruza 3y ago
Where can one read up on [2.]?
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  I got into some details on how I do light-weight apps (especially during development) without bundling in a nearby comment as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564986 To resummarize: sometimes it is fine to prune and ship node_modules to your web server, you can use import maps to handle "node-style 'bare' imports", and you may only need to "spot bundle" to ESM a single dependent library or two that doesn't ship ESM that will directly work in the browser (which should be a decreasing list). After that it's a matter of using your browser's Dev Tools to tell you what your performance looks like and where your bottlenecks are. That can tell you a lot to help you determine if you really need to bundle more of your site/app or if you can spot-bundle/adjust an import map for just a specific sub-graph. With HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 the "per-file" "penalty" is a lot less, though still somewhat exists. Even some properly configured HTTP/1.1 servers it is not always as bad as history tells us it was (properly configured HTTP/1.1 did support some connection sharing). About the only remaining thing a bundle might buy you on HTTP/2+ is maybe better behavior with compression on the bundle as a single whole, but even that isn't a given because Brotli's dictionary was designed to work at the whole connection level and that's often the default compression in HTTP/2+. But again, your conditions may vary based on your real code and the specific servers and browsers you need to support, so leverage your browser Dev Tools and check the real numbers.

lakpan 3y ago

You’re 110% on point. Publishing is too complicated? Let’s add something else: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ This is all node and npm’s fault, they’re sinking billions of dollars of developer time worldwide and they should be called out on it.