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> Most Russians just subconsciously detect the safest position and orient themselves accordingly. Not because of conscious fear, simply by default. Most Americ

> Most Russians just subconsciously detect the safest position and orient themselves accordingly. Not because of conscious fear, simply by default. Most Americans do exactly the same. Look at the reaction to 9/11 and the subsequent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority of Americans couldn't identify either of those countries on a map let alone understand their history and culture yet it was "safe" to go along with it lest you be called unpatriotic.

ajuc 3y ago
Now imagine 9/11 hadn't happened and USA invades Iraq after denying it for months. What would be the response of the opposition voters? :) In USA it's about 50/50 on almost every issue. It's nothing like Russia. In USA a significant percentage of population openly protested Obama on the point that he isn't American. Try that with Putin :)
- adolph 3y ago
  It sounds like what you are saying is that like Russia the US invades when it serves whatever happens to be the interest of the establishment clique but unlike Russia the US ignores ineffective protests.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    Well, and US also has elections that actually mean something, unlike Russia. Republicans lost in 2008 in large part because of the war.
fauigerzigerk 3y ago
>Most Americans do exactly the same. I don't think it's the same at all. Attitudes towards the Iraq war changed massively during the presidency of George W Bush [1]. They didn't suddenly flip when Obama came into office. Also, looking at America today from the outside, what I see is a very polarised country with very entrenched opinions that I don't see changing much regardless of who wins the next election. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/2008/03/19/public-attitudes-toward-the-war-in-iraq-20032008/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2008/03/19/public-attitudes-towa...
- khokhol 3y ago
  Attitudes towards the Iraq war changed massively during the presidency of George W Bush [1]. Sure it changed once they saw the (wholly predictable) actual reality of the war. But the fact that a solid majority supported the debacle at the outset, despite Bush's lies at the time being roughly on par with Putin's lies about Ukraine today (in terms of being transparently BS) -- does tend to support the point the above commenter is making.
  - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
    Not at all. A majority of Americans changed their minds in opposition to the sitting president who had started the war. This directly contradicts the point the above commenter was making.
    - khokhol 3y ago
      Seems you're drifting away from the scope of the issue I was referring to. And are basically talking about something else.
      - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
        I was only ever talking about a very narrow point that you apparently missed. I'm not having a general Iraq war debate. Everything interesting has already been said about that.
  - TeaBrain 3y ago
    It didn't take years of little progress for the US public to become pessimistic about the Iraq War. The war had less than 50% approval only a year after starting. Also, contrary to what is commonly passed around as fact today, it was not abundantly clear that the Iraqi chemical weapons program no longer existed, as the US was never actually supplied with evidence that the Iraqi Biological Weapons program was done away with after the Gulf War, which is why it wasn't just the possible existence of WMDs that was given as justification, but the non-cooperation with inspectors also. In the early 2000s, soldiers were given multiple rounds of anthrax vaccine shots due to this lack of clarity. This is not to say that this justification a good reason, but it wasn't a clear lie at the time either, despite being repeated commonly as such on the internet these days. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/us/the-2004-campaign-the-poll-support-for-war-is-down-sharply-poll-concludes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/us/the-2004-campaign-the-...
dh2022 3y ago
In USA hundreds of thousands of people protested against the Iraq war : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War Is not even comparable.
mrguyorama 3y ago
This is only one political party. When the government changes hands, republicans will openly change their entire worldview about, for example, the economy, despite it being impossible anything actually changed, while democrats largely don't. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-pessimistic-views-on-the-economy-have-little-to-do-with-the-economy/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-pessimistic... I mean christ, look at that graph. Republican opinion changed overnight. There are even more examples for this exact effect. Seems when republican voters say "economy", they might mean something else. People constantly paint America with a single brush. What you see on CNN, MSNBC, FOX etc isn't America. We get shit on constantly for doing that to other countries so it's always annoying when others do exactly that to us.
int_19h 3y ago
Speaking as someone who grew up in Russia and lived for 12 years in US, your average American might be just as gullible as your average Russian, but they are certainly a lot less conformist when it comes to government policies.

ajuc 3y ago

Now imagine 9/11 hadn't happened and USA invades Iraq after denying it for months. What would be the response of the opposition voters? :) In USA it's about 50/50 on almost every issue. It's nothing like Russia. In USA a significant percentage of population openly protested Obama on the point that he isn't American. Try that with Putin :)

adolph 3y ago
It sounds like what you are saying is that like Russia the US invades when it serves whatever happens to be the interest of the establishment clique but unlike Russia the US ignores ineffective protests.
- int_19h 3y ago
  Well, and US also has elections that actually mean something, unlike Russia. Republicans lost in 2008 in large part because of the war.

fauigerzigerk 3y ago

>Most Americans do exactly the same. I don't think it's the same at all. Attitudes towards the Iraq war changed massively during the presidency of George W Bush [1]. They didn't suddenly flip when Obama came into office. Also, looking at America today from the outside, what I see is a very polarised country with very entrenched opinions that I don't see changing much regardless of who wins the next election. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/2008/03/19/public-attitudes-toward-the-war-in-iraq-20032008/ https://www.pewresearch.org/2008/03/19/public-attitudes-towa...

khokhol 3y ago
Attitudes towards the Iraq war changed massively during the presidency of George W Bush [1]. Sure it changed once they saw the (wholly predictable) actual reality of the war. But the fact that a solid majority supported the debacle at the outset, despite Bush's lies at the time being roughly on par with Putin's lies about Ukraine today (in terms of being transparently BS) -- does tend to support the point the above commenter is making.
- fauigerzigerk 3y ago
  Not at all. A majority of Americans changed their minds in opposition to the sitting president who had started the war. This directly contradicts the point the above commenter was making.
  - khokhol 3y ago
    Seems you're drifting away from the scope of the issue I was referring to. And are basically talking about something else.
    - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
      I was only ever talking about a very narrow point that you apparently missed. I'm not having a general Iraq war debate. Everything interesting has already been said about that.
- TeaBrain 3y ago
  It didn't take years of little progress for the US public to become pessimistic about the Iraq War. The war had less than 50% approval only a year after starting. Also, contrary to what is commonly passed around as fact today, it was not abundantly clear that the Iraqi chemical weapons program no longer existed, as the US was never actually supplied with evidence that the Iraqi Biological Weapons program was done away with after the Gulf War, which is why it wasn't just the possible existence of WMDs that was given as justification, but the non-cooperation with inspectors also. In the early 2000s, soldiers were given multiple rounds of anthrax vaccine shots due to this lack of clarity. This is not to say that this justification a good reason, but it wasn't a clear lie at the time either, despite being repeated commonly as such on the internet these days. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/us/the-2004-campaign-the-poll-support-for-war-is-down-sharply-poll-concludes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/us/the-2004-campaign-the-...

dh2022 3y ago

In USA hundreds of thousands of people protested against the Iraq war : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War Is not even comparable.

mrguyorama 3y ago

This is only one political party. When the government changes hands, republicans will openly change their entire worldview about, for example, the economy, despite it being impossible anything actually changed, while democrats largely don't. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-pessimistic-views-on-the-economy-have-little-to-do-with-the-economy/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-pessimistic... I mean christ, look at that graph. Republican opinion changed overnight. There are even more examples for this exact effect. Seems when republican voters say "economy", they might mean something else. People constantly paint America with a single brush. What you see on CNN, MSNBC, FOX etc isn't America. We get shit on constantly for doing that to other countries so it's always annoying when others do exactly that to us.

int_19h 3y ago

Speaking as someone who grew up in Russia and lived for 12 years in US, your average American might be just as gullible as your average Russian, but they are certainly a lot less conformist when it comes to government policies.