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> This type of stuff also might explain one of the reasons why German governments and big conglomerates seemingly have a mental block when dealing with Putin's

> This type of stuff also might explain one of the reasons why German governments and big conglomerates seemingly have a mental block when dealing with Putin's Russia. The guy is Austrian. > The Nord Stream might be the most "famous" one. How can a society so conservative and risk averse to the point of ridiculousness allow their whole country to be almost exclusively dependent of Russia? It doesn't make any sense. Nord Stream brought in 55% of natural gas managed in Germany. 50% of natural gas managed in Germany was for export. So there's no "almost exclusive" dependency, use of russian gas wasn't a German peculiarity, and Germany could have thrown the rest of Europe under the bus to quickly get rid of any association with russian gas at a moment's notice (by restricting exports to compensate for the loss.) For the record, Germany didn't do that. Germany took cheap natural gas, Europe took cheap natural gas, and when the source for cheap natural gas turned out to be a problem, gears were shifted to get away from that. At a cost, certainly, but probably still cheaper than relying only on more expensive gas sources for 50 years. With the added benefit of calming down the cold war (and the attempt to repeat that performance later-on, which in hindsight was unsuccessful)

dralley 3y ago
Maybe that's a fine rationale for Nordstream 1, but it's a terrible rationale for Nordstream 2. There were repeated votes strongly in favor (like, 8-to-1 ratio) of halting the project in European Parliament not to mention strong and vocal opposition from the US, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics.
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  Nordstream 2 hasn't transported a single m^3 of natural gas for sale (there was probably some minor net flow from initial pressurization), as promised in case of russia ending the peace. That thing was a money sink: About 5bn€ of Gazprom money, about 1bn€ each for 5 energy traders from Germany (2x), France, Austria and Great Britain. > There were repeated votes strongly in favor (like, 8-to-1 ratio) of halting the project in European Parliament And the natural gas they used came from a random non-russian pipeline. Nevermind that it was ~half russian in origin. Hypocrites. > strong and vocal opposition from the US, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics - US: Hey, buy our LNG. (and now: no, not like that!) - Ukraine, Poland: Hey, don't bypass our pipelines, we want the money! - Also Poland: "Germany is bad", practically all the time, practically on every subject. At some point you tune out the noise from Warsaw.
  - dralley 3y ago
    > Nordstream 2 hasn't transported a single m^3 of natural gas for sale (there was probably some minor net flow from initial pressurization), as promised in case of russia ending the peace. Yes, this was the agreement that the US made in return for dropping US sanctions on the pipeline project. Which was made only after it became obvious that Germany was insistent on completing the project against everyone else's wishes because "they knew better" and the talk about it being threat to the national security of Eastern Europe was irrational (/s). >And the natural gas they used came from a random non-russian pipeline. Nevermind that it was ~half russian in origin. Hypocrites. > - Ukraine, Poland: Hey, don't bypass our pipelines, we want the money! You understand that there is a legitimate difference? Without Nordstream, Russia can't turn off the gas to Ukraine and Poland (or damage the pipelines) without turning it off for all of Western Europe. Nordstream lets them do that, and that is (was) a significant wedge between Germany and Eastern Europe.
    - pgeorgi 3y ago
      Before 2022 Ukraine shut down the pipeline to the EU in 2009 and threatened to do so again in 2014. I'm not sure what other country or bloc would ever accept the national security concept of "we can cut you off from energy at any time, to keep you aligned against that other guy" as something they're supposed to support. Meanwhile the pipelines existed and can be configured to work the other direction, so the somewhat friendly relations at the time between Germany and russia could have secured gas supplies for Poland and Ukraine. So "we'll cut you off when we want", "you're evil anyway" and "hey, don't bypass us", all at the same time. No, thanks. That said, the "moral high ground" solution would have been to get rid of fossils earlier - which wasn't much of a talking point by the objectors to Nord Stream 2, except for the Green party. Of course, Poland and Ukraine would have lost their leverage that way as well, while Germany would have lost the lever of economic relations with russia, so that option might have been even more fragile for Eastern Europe.
      - dralley 3y ago
        > Before 2022 Ukraine shut down the pipeline to the EU in 2009 and threatened to do so again in 2014. That is a complete lie, Ukraine did not "shut down the pipeline", Russia did - both times - because of their disputes (both trade and physical) with Ukraine. During those shutdowns, Ukraine was not receiving gas either. The root of the dispute being that Russia massively increased the price Ukraine had to pay for gas as political punishment. Russia then used that as leverage to try to get other nations, like Germany, to put pressure on Ukraine themselves.

dralley 3y ago

Maybe that's a fine rationale for Nordstream 1, but it's a terrible rationale for Nordstream 2. There were repeated votes strongly in favor (like, 8-to-1 ratio) of halting the project in European Parliament not to mention strong and vocal opposition from the US, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics.

pgeorgi 3y ago
Nordstream 2 hasn't transported a single m^3 of natural gas for sale (there was probably some minor net flow from initial pressurization), as promised in case of russia ending the peace. That thing was a money sink: About 5bn€ of Gazprom money, about 1bn€ each for 5 energy traders from Germany (2x), France, Austria and Great Britain. > There were repeated votes strongly in favor (like, 8-to-1 ratio) of halting the project in European Parliament And the natural gas they used came from a random non-russian pipeline. Nevermind that it was ~half russian in origin. Hypocrites. > strong and vocal opposition from the US, Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics - US: Hey, buy our LNG. (and now: no, not like that!) - Ukraine, Poland: Hey, don't bypass our pipelines, we want the money! - Also Poland: "Germany is bad", practically all the time, practically on every subject. At some point you tune out the noise from Warsaw.
- dralley 3y ago
  > Nordstream 2 hasn't transported a single m^3 of natural gas for sale (there was probably some minor net flow from initial pressurization), as promised in case of russia ending the peace. Yes, this was the agreement that the US made in return for dropping US sanctions on the pipeline project. Which was made only after it became obvious that Germany was insistent on completing the project against everyone else's wishes because "they knew better" and the talk about it being threat to the national security of Eastern Europe was irrational (/s). >And the natural gas they used came from a random non-russian pipeline. Nevermind that it was ~half russian in origin. Hypocrites. > - Ukraine, Poland: Hey, don't bypass our pipelines, we want the money! You understand that there is a legitimate difference? Without Nordstream, Russia can't turn off the gas to Ukraine and Poland (or damage the pipelines) without turning it off for all of Western Europe. Nordstream lets them do that, and that is (was) a significant wedge between Germany and Eastern Europe.
  - pgeorgi 3y ago
    Before 2022 Ukraine shut down the pipeline to the EU in 2009 and threatened to do so again in 2014. I'm not sure what other country or bloc would ever accept the national security concept of "we can cut you off from energy at any time, to keep you aligned against that other guy" as something they're supposed to support. Meanwhile the pipelines existed and can be configured to work the other direction, so the somewhat friendly relations at the time between Germany and russia could have secured gas supplies for Poland and Ukraine. So "we'll cut you off when we want", "you're evil anyway" and "hey, don't bypass us", all at the same time. No, thanks. That said, the "moral high ground" solution would have been to get rid of fossils earlier - which wasn't much of a talking point by the objectors to Nord Stream 2, except for the Green party. Of course, Poland and Ukraine would have lost their leverage that way as well, while Germany would have lost the lever of economic relations with russia, so that option might have been even more fragile for Eastern Europe.
    - dralley 3y ago
      > Before 2022 Ukraine shut down the pipeline to the EU in 2009 and threatened to do so again in 2014. That is a complete lie, Ukraine did not "shut down the pipeline", Russia did - both times - because of their disputes (both trade and physical) with Ukraine. During those shutdowns, Ukraine was not receiving gas either. The root of the dispute being that Russia massively increased the price Ukraine had to pay for gas as political punishment. Russia then used that as leverage to try to get other nations, like Germany, to put pressure on Ukraine themselves.