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Russian Orthodox church today is openly run by russian state officials, military, police, fsb members, etc. They are also openly supporting invasion of Ukraine

by ajuc 3y ago

Russian Orthodox church today is openly run by russian state officials, military, police, fsb members, etc. They are also openly supporting invasion of Ukraine as a kind of "holy war". The russian word for "non-government organization" is "foreign agent".

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
> The russian word for "non-government organization" is "foreign agent". Thats pretty accurate though.
- ajuc 3y ago
  It's not, and westerners who think they agree don't actually agree, they are just edgy. It's hard to even explain what it would mean to internalize this belief system. Let me try. We're you ever on an amateur IT conference? Comicon? Some sports event? Would it ever occur to you to assume some government is secretly behind it? When the Jehova witnesses or scientologists knock on your door - which government is financing them to do it and why? After all people don't do things for free.
  - brookst 3y ago
    It’s just the reductive pedantry that’s so popular on the internet. A CIA operative is the agent of a foreign government, therefore a foreign agent. A Doctors Without Borders medic is an agent of a foreign organization, therefore a foreign agent. Therefore CIA and DWB are essentially the same thing. Bonus points if you can find one case where a DWB volunteer also had ties to the CIA, which would totally expose the two orgs as being exactly the same in all ways at all times. For some reason people just can’t resist reductionism.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      > For some reason people just can’t resist reductionism. Being a bit reductive there, eh? :)
      - brookst 3y ago
        Nah, overgeneralizing maybe… reductive would have been saying reductionism is no different than overgeneralizing :)
  - MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
    Comicon is not what people mean by NGOs being covert state department ops. Here is an explanation you’re not going to watch: https://x.com/NewFounding/status/1727493568325935109 https://x.com/NewFounding/status/1727493568325935109
    - ajuc 3y ago
      Russians actually believe both Majdans were CIA. Putin actually believed Ukrainians won't resist the invasion because all the protests were staged by USA. It's inconceivable to them that a civil society is a thing. NGOs in Russia ALL have to register as foreign agents. Including the ones who organize comicons etc. This is the reason I told you you don't actually understand. As for your video I don't have that much time for propaganda, care to summarize it?
      - epistasis 3y ago
        So funny that you are downvoted, this is exactly right and perfectly clear to anyone who is remotely familiar with the area, or Russian society.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      That's a 90 minute video. Even at double speed that's still 45 minutes. you'll have to make your point mire succinctly if you want to get your point across. "That's not what people meant". No, people are pointing out holes in your reductionism.
- randomname93857 3y ago
  where do you live? I think any civilized country has many local ngos that help abused animals, or provide mental support for children or abused women, or support some medical initiatives, etc...
maratc 3y ago
That's true, but there's a need to put that information in the proper context. First, there's nothing new or surprising about it, as the official Russian Orthodox church has historically been under the state's control. This goes back to middle ages and Tsars. It would not be reasonable to expect any opposition from them. And second, most of their faithful agree with them on the Ukraine issues.
- ajuc 3y ago
  The agreement of "regular Russians" is a very curious thing. From talking with Russians they weren't expecting or supporting a war with Ukraine even a week before it started. It was a western lie that Putin wants to invade Ukraine up to the second it happened, and then it became obviously the only possible choice overnight. The most important thing to understand about Russians is that they were trained for centuries to be passive cynical conformists. It mostly worked. There are some actual nationalists who want the war. But most Russians view them as madmen who are "sticking out" and will suffer for it eventually. It's as stupid to be openly unpatriotic as it is to be too patriotic. See girkin. Most Russians just subconsciously detect the safest position and orient themselves accordingly. Not because of conscious fear, simply by default. If Navalny became Russian president - the next day 80% of Russians would be completely persuaded they were always against the war. Orthodox church doesn't have much influence, IMHO, it's just aligned like everything else.
  - phone8675309 3y ago
    > Most Russians just subconsciously detect the safest position and orient themselves accordingly. Not because of conscious fear, simply by default. Most Americans do exactly the same. Look at the reaction to 9/11 and the subsequent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority of Americans couldn't identify either of those countries on a map let alone understand their history and culture yet it was "safe" to go along with it lest you be called unpatriotic.
    - ajuc 3y ago
      Now imagine 9/11 hadn't happened and USA invades Iraq after denying it for months. What would be the response of the opposition voters? :) In USA it's about 50/50 on almost every issue. It's nothing like Russia. In USA a significant percentage of population openly protested Obama on the point that he isn't American. Try that with Putin :)
simpletone 3y ago
> Russian Orthodox church today is openly run by russian state officials, military, police, fsb members, etc. Official state churches are part of the state. > They are also openly supporting invasion of Ukraine as a kind of "holy war". What about a holy war to bring democracy and freedom to ukraine. Would that make it better? > The russian word for "non-government organization" is "foreign agent". It's everyone's word for NGOs. Haven't we been attacking chinese 'ngos' as being 'foreign agents'? It isn't a secret that we've been using NGOs as intelligence fronts for a very long time. What do you think NGOs exist to do? Provide aid? Help foreign countries?
lukan 3y ago
The patriarch of the Orthodox church, Kyrill, was literally a KGB buddy of Putin. Funny was how they try to present them as modest, but cannot properly remove their Rolex out of a picture (or bother not wearing a Rolex). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17622820 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17622820 Hard to imagine, how anyone can believe such people in a spiritual way.

by ajuc 3y ago

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago

> The russian word for "non-government organization" is "foreign agent". Thats pretty accurate though.

ajuc 3y ago
It's not, and westerners who think they agree don't actually agree, they are just edgy. It's hard to even explain what it would mean to internalize this belief system. Let me try. We're you ever on an amateur IT conference? Comicon? Some sports event? Would it ever occur to you to assume some government is secretly behind it? When the Jehova witnesses or scientologists knock on your door - which government is financing them to do it and why? After all people don't do things for free.
- brookst 3y ago
  It’s just the reductive pedantry that’s so popular on the internet. A CIA operative is the agent of a foreign government, therefore a foreign agent. A Doctors Without Borders medic is an agent of a foreign organization, therefore a foreign agent. Therefore CIA and DWB are essentially the same thing. Bonus points if you can find one case where a DWB volunteer also had ties to the CIA, which would totally expose the two orgs as being exactly the same in all ways at all times. For some reason people just can’t resist reductionism.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    > For some reason people just can’t resist reductionism. Being a bit reductive there, eh? :)
    - brookst 3y ago
      Nah, overgeneralizing maybe… reductive would have been saying reductionism is no different than overgeneralizing :)
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Comicon is not what people mean by NGOs being covert state department ops. Here is an explanation you’re not going to watch: https://x.com/NewFounding/status/1727493568325935109 https://x.com/NewFounding/status/1727493568325935109
  - ajuc 3y ago
    Russians actually believe both Majdans were CIA. Putin actually believed Ukrainians won't resist the invasion because all the protests were staged by USA. It's inconceivable to them that a civil society is a thing. NGOs in Russia ALL have to register as foreign agents. Including the ones who organize comicons etc. This is the reason I told you you don't actually understand. As for your video I don't have that much time for propaganda, care to summarize it?
    - epistasis 3y ago
      So funny that you are downvoted, this is exactly right and perfectly clear to anyone who is remotely familiar with the area, or Russian society.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    That's a 90 minute video. Even at double speed that's still 45 minutes. you'll have to make your point mire succinctly if you want to get your point across. "That's not what people meant". No, people are pointing out holes in your reductionism.
randomname93857 3y ago
where do you live? I think any civilized country has many local ngos that help abused animals, or provide mental support for children or abused women, or support some medical initiatives, etc...

maratc 3y ago

That's true, but there's a need to put that information in the proper context. First, there's nothing new or surprising about it, as the official Russian Orthodox church has historically been under the state's control. This goes back to middle ages and Tsars. It would not be reasonable to expect any opposition from them. And second, most of their faithful agree with them on the Ukraine issues.

ajuc 3y ago
The agreement of "regular Russians" is a very curious thing. From talking with Russians they weren't expecting or supporting a war with Ukraine even a week before it started. It was a western lie that Putin wants to invade Ukraine up to the second it happened, and then it became obviously the only possible choice overnight. The most important thing to understand about Russians is that they were trained for centuries to be passive cynical conformists. It mostly worked. There are some actual nationalists who want the war. But most Russians view them as madmen who are "sticking out" and will suffer for it eventually. It's as stupid to be openly unpatriotic as it is to be too patriotic. See girkin. Most Russians just subconsciously detect the safest position and orient themselves accordingly. Not because of conscious fear, simply by default. If Navalny became Russian president - the next day 80% of Russians would be completely persuaded they were always against the war. Orthodox church doesn't have much influence, IMHO, it's just aligned like everything else.
- phone8675309 3y ago
  > Most Russians just subconsciously detect the safest position and orient themselves accordingly. Not because of conscious fear, simply by default. Most Americans do exactly the same. Look at the reaction to 9/11 and the subsequent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority of Americans couldn't identify either of those countries on a map let alone understand their history and culture yet it was "safe" to go along with it lest you be called unpatriotic.
  - ajuc 3y ago
    Now imagine 9/11 hadn't happened and USA invades Iraq after denying it for months. What would be the response of the opposition voters? :) In USA it's about 50/50 on almost every issue. It's nothing like Russia. In USA a significant percentage of population openly protested Obama on the point that he isn't American. Try that with Putin :)

simpletone 3y ago

> Russian Orthodox church today is openly run by russian state officials, military, police, fsb members, etc. Official state churches are part of the state. > They are also openly supporting invasion of Ukraine as a kind of "holy war". What about a holy war to bring democracy and freedom to ukraine. Would that make it better? > The russian word for "non-government organization" is "foreign agent". It's everyone's word for NGOs. Haven't we been attacking chinese 'ngos' as being 'foreign agents'? It isn't a secret that we've been using NGOs as intelligence fronts for a very long time. What do you think NGOs exist to do? Provide aid? Help foreign countries?

lukan 3y ago

The patriarch of the Orthodox church, Kyrill, was literally a KGB buddy of Putin. Funny was how they try to present them as modest, but cannot properly remove their Rolex out of a picture (or bother not wearing a Rolex). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17622820 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17622820 Hard to imagine, how anyone can believe such people in a spiritual way.