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I try exploring the 'alt-internet' or indyweb or whatever we call it from time to time. I've messed around on Mastodon instances, but it never really clicked wi

I try exploring the 'alt-internet' or indyweb or whatever we call it from time to time. I've messed around on Mastodon instances, but it never really clicked with me. I never really used Twitter though, either, so not surprised. I did enjoy old Instagram around the time stories came out because it was just my friends sharing less-polished pictures of what they were doing, so I thought maybe I would enjoy Pixelfed. I played with Scuttlebutt for a while and found it the most fun, just a pain in the ass to use. However, they all have a similar problem. There's almost no one except bored tech people on them. Don't get me wrong, I think retro computing is cool, and I like seeing people's DIY hardware creations occasionally, but it's only a small niche. The corner shop is boring if it's almost always empty, and the only people that ever show up are other corner shop proprietors or corner shop enthusiasts. At the same time I'm aware that attracting the rhetorical racist uncle from Facebook over to your Mastodon instance is not the goal, and it wouldn't make it better to have wider appeal. There are very few non-tech-specific old web holdouts that I know of. One of my favorites is Crazy Guy on a Bike [1]. It's a special purpose site, forum, blogging platform, etc. specifically for bike touring, all run on donations by one crazy guy writing Perl like it's 1998. It's been around for over 20 years, and as cool as it is, it's also fixed scene that isn't growing or attracting new members. As people move on and donations dry up I'm sure it'll disappear. I don't want it to be so, but I feel like whether you're at the mall or the corner store, the internet is just a boring place now, and yet I spend more time with it than almost anything else. Probably says more about my age and the fact that AIM chat and quirky HTML sites were a part of my childhood than anything else. [1] https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/ https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/

RamblingCTO 3y ago
I also liked instagram back in the day for photography. Someone is building https://grainery.app/ https://grainery.app/ focused on (film) photographers. I think we'll see more of a trend towards niche social media, which is cool.
- Karrot_Kream 3y ago
  There already was a huge trend toward niche social media, around the time FB was made. Stuff like Path, Diaspora, Bandcamp, and Yo. They were either cloned and destroyed by bigger social sites or they couldn't find enough traction in their niche.
  - skgough 3y ago
    I think the big difference now is how these sites stay alive. Now that we know things like Nebula or Kagi can work using a paid model, more of these types of user-supported communities will pop up. What's interesting about this, I think, is that in order for places like these to collect enough users to support themselves, the creator class of the community will have to become famous on one of the free-to-publish communities, like Twitter or YouTube, and then encourage their fans to come with them to the paid community. I imagine at some point YouTube and Tiktok et al will start restricting these types of promotional material to retain users, which is not fun to think about.
    - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
      Path used a paid model and still didn't survive. It's true the techies who lament the decline of corner stores are now more excited about things like Kagi and I'm pretty sure a lot of their marketing is exploiting those feelings on niche sites like HN. But really, how long have they even been alive? Path tried their best for years and then failed. I hope that maybe enough has changed that folks like Kagi can now survive since wishing ill on something being built isn't my way.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  I went to the URL. Login-walled. Closed tab :(
rapnie 3y ago
> However, they all have a similar problem. There's almost no one except bored tech people on them. In the case of Mastodon this very much depends how you 'build' your personal timeline. It is empty at the start, and you have millions of people to follow.. or avoid following. Some countries have less inhabitants than the number of active users. I'm sure in most cases there are enough people around who are involved in ones particular non-tech interest areas.
- eloisius 3y ago
  Mastodon particularly is a format that I cannot get into. Same problem with Twitter for me. Sure I could go mining the depths for that one person who posts something I like, but in my few superficial attempts, it just feels like I'm walking around catching fragments of conversations, most that don't really interest me.
indigochill 3y ago
> The corner shop is boring if it's almost always empty, and the only people that ever show up are other corner shop proprietors or corner shop enthusiasts. As a self-identifying corner shop enthusiast, I think the magic of corner shops is that they're an exercise in shifting to a hopefully healthier mindset. Before: Something always going on, most of it not adding appreciable value but keeping us engaged anyway, often through FOMO After: Lots of silence and empty space, but people communicate with far more intent. The signal-to-noise ratio goes way up and rather than living plugged in constantly, you can easily keep up with the discussion checking in maybe every few days. It leaves space for a more mindful, deliberate life. (Okay, I'm overselling it a bit, but hopefully you get the idea) However, it's not just a mindset thing. Beyond the usability challenges of Mastodon in particular, for the best social experience, in my opinion, you really _need_ to either operate your own server (of Mastodon or Pixelfed or whatever) or personally know someone who does (or at least be in some community with them). And that group == bored tech people. I don't really know of a solution for that besides node admins becoming more active as real-life community organizers but that's not the most common intersection of skills/interests. To your last point, though, I recommend checking out the Tildeverse (https://tildeverse.org/ https://tildeverse.org/). It's _extremely_ nerdy (hope you like IRC!), but I don't think the tech people there are bored. There's a community radio, various art projects, people making games and other console apps.... Of all the neat places I've hung out online, I think it's the one that's actively inspired me most.

RamblingCTO 3y ago

I also liked instagram back in the day for photography. Someone is building https://grainery.app/ https://grainery.app/ focused on (film) photographers. I think we'll see more of a trend towards niche social media, which is cool.

Karrot_Kream 3y ago
There already was a huge trend toward niche social media, around the time FB was made. Stuff like Path, Diaspora, Bandcamp, and Yo. They were either cloned and destroyed by bigger social sites or they couldn't find enough traction in their niche.
- skgough 3y ago
  I think the big difference now is how these sites stay alive. Now that we know things like Nebula or Kagi can work using a paid model, more of these types of user-supported communities will pop up. What's interesting about this, I think, is that in order for places like these to collect enough users to support themselves, the creator class of the community will have to become famous on one of the free-to-publish communities, like Twitter or YouTube, and then encourage their fans to come with them to the paid community. I imagine at some point YouTube and Tiktok et al will start restricting these types of promotional material to retain users, which is not fun to think about.
  - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    Path used a paid model and still didn't survive. It's true the techies who lament the decline of corner stores are now more excited about things like Kagi and I'm pretty sure a lot of their marketing is exploiting those feelings on niche sites like HN. But really, how long have they even been alive? Path tried their best for years and then failed. I hope that maybe enough has changed that folks like Kagi can now survive since wishing ill on something being built isn't my way.
qingcharles 3y ago
I went to the URL. Login-walled. Closed tab :(

rapnie 3y ago

> However, they all have a similar problem. There's almost no one except bored tech people on them. In the case of Mastodon this very much depends how you 'build' your personal timeline. It is empty at the start, and you have millions of people to follow.. or avoid following. Some countries have less inhabitants than the number of active users. I'm sure in most cases there are enough people around who are involved in ones particular non-tech interest areas.

eloisius 3y ago
Mastodon particularly is a format that I cannot get into. Same problem with Twitter for me. Sure I could go mining the depths for that one person who posts something I like, but in my few superficial attempts, it just feels like I'm walking around catching fragments of conversations, most that don't really interest me.

indigochill 3y ago

> The corner shop is boring if it's almost always empty, and the only people that ever show up are other corner shop proprietors or corner shop enthusiasts. As a self-identifying corner shop enthusiast, I think the magic of corner shops is that they're an exercise in shifting to a hopefully healthier mindset. Before: Something always going on, most of it not adding appreciable value but keeping us engaged anyway, often through FOMO After: Lots of silence and empty space, but people communicate with far more intent. The signal-to-noise ratio goes way up and rather than living plugged in constantly, you can easily keep up with the discussion checking in maybe every few days. It leaves space for a more mindful, deliberate life. (Okay, I'm overselling it a bit, but hopefully you get the idea) However, it's not just a mindset thing. Beyond the usability challenges of Mastodon in particular, for the best social experience, in my opinion, you really _need_ to either operate your own server (of Mastodon or Pixelfed or whatever) or personally know someone who does (or at least be in some community with them). And that group == bored tech people. I don't really know of a solution for that besides node admins becoming more active as real-life community organizers but that's not the most common intersection of skills/interests. To your last point, though, I recommend checking out the Tildeverse (https://tildeverse.org/ https://tildeverse.org/). It's _extremely_ nerdy (hope you like IRC!), but I don't think the tech people there are bored. There's a community radio, various art projects, people making games and other console apps.... Of all the neat places I've hung out online, I think it's the one that's actively inspired me most.