5 ms·

Exactly. For most scifi/fantasy writers, religion is window dressing. Very few care unless they are writing explicitly and very consciously about real world rel

Exactly. For most scifi/fantasy writers, religion is window dressing. Very few care unless they are writing explicitly and very consciously about real world religions via a thinly veiled allegory. The ones that come to mind for me are Dan Simmons, Walter Miller, and Philip K Dick. If you remember the Priest's Tale from Hyperion or Mercerism in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, you know what I'm talking about.

Apocryphon 3y ago
To be fair, I don't think religion is window dressing in Dune, it's just the specifics of how society came to be so syncretic that they end up compiling the OC Bible doesn't need to be examined (other than the hazily-sketched out narrative about the Council of Ecumenical Translators in the appendix). Ditto how disparate religions like Zen Buddhism or Sunni Islam (or every single other existing religion) come to mix together. It's just assumed that's what happens because it's so far in the future. What's important is what these far future faiths, at least the ones that aren't throwaway references, do afterwards.
- throw4847285 3y ago
  I guess rather than say religion is window dressing, I'd say Herbert wasn't particularly interested in coming up with a theology or rituals or anything like that. He's interested in religions as a medium for power. Which, to be frank, is how a lot of powerful people throughout history have treated religion. It's just that, when you don't have a sense of how everyday people relate to those kinds of structures, it feels a little fake to me.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    I would say that it's untrue insofar that he comes up with plenty of rituals and proverbs and prophecies. Theology definitely appears when it comes to the nature of the space messiah that the Fremen are waiting for. And we definitely see everyday people engaging in that throughout the book! But I do also grok what you're getting at- ultimately these trappings of religion are part of the medium of power, and covers up the base desires of humanity, even when it becomes transhuman through space spice-psychic magic. Herbert's elaborate spiritual systems then become manifestations of the culture under religion, but don't hold true moral or philosophical significance that religion is supposed to have, because the true moral reality in his setting is ultimately still about power. I don't know, I haven't read the sequels, this interpretation might be really off-base.
    - bigger_cheese 3y ago
      >Herbert's elaborate spiritual systems then become manifestations of the culture under religion, but don't hold true moral or philosophical significance that religion is supposed to have, because the true moral reality in his setting is ultimately still about power. In the later novels it introduces the concept of "Arafel" a word which comes from the Hebrew word for darkness. It represents the apocalypse (the end of humanity) and the idea is that through the golden path humanity is steered away from Arafel, so there is a thin veneer of a moral justification beyond power..
- kragen 3y ago
  every religion is full of elements from previous religions zen buddhism can reasonably be thought of as a mix between daoism and buddhism pure land buddhism is basically christianity dressed in buddhist language modern hinduism is full of buddhist elements many central aspects of christian myth can be traced back to things like the resurrection of osiris many christian practices such as monogamy and christmas are obvious continuations of roman pagan religious practices, and of course 'easter' was a northern european fertility goddess (though she isn't the origin of the festival with her name; the corresponding holiday is called some version of 'pesach', 'passover', in non-norse languages) in many cases particular saints in syncretic catholicism in the new world can be identified with particular pre-conquest deities islam is largely judaism, but has clearly integrated a lot of non-jewish cultural elements and all of that is just in the last 2500 years! so it seems totally believable that in 26000 years things would be vastly more intertwingled
  - throw4847285 3y ago
    This is both extremely reductive and also totally false. Obviously religions influence other religions, but all your examples don't hold up to scrutiny. Islam is just Judaism? What? Christmas isn't pagan. That's a myth. Modern Christmas was invented by German Protestants and then spread to England where it was given a huge shot in the arm by Charles Dickens. You're wrong about Zen Buddhism. Syncretism exists, but Herbert is just so lazy. He mashes together two different religions with very little in common other than Orientalism (his greatest vice as a creator).
    - kragen 3y ago
      i agree that you can say things that are totally false that use some of the same words as the things that i said

Apocryphon 3y ago

To be fair, I don't think religion is window dressing in Dune, it's just the specifics of how society came to be so syncretic that they end up compiling the OC Bible doesn't need to be examined (other than the hazily-sketched out narrative about the Council of Ecumenical Translators in the appendix). Ditto how disparate religions like Zen Buddhism or Sunni Islam (or every single other existing religion) come to mix together. It's just assumed that's what happens because it's so far in the future. What's important is what these far future faiths, at least the ones that aren't throwaway references, do afterwards.

throw4847285 3y ago
I guess rather than say religion is window dressing, I'd say Herbert wasn't particularly interested in coming up with a theology or rituals or anything like that. He's interested in religions as a medium for power. Which, to be frank, is how a lot of powerful people throughout history have treated religion. It's just that, when you don't have a sense of how everyday people relate to those kinds of structures, it feels a little fake to me.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  I would say that it's untrue insofar that he comes up with plenty of rituals and proverbs and prophecies. Theology definitely appears when it comes to the nature of the space messiah that the Fremen are waiting for. And we definitely see everyday people engaging in that throughout the book! But I do also grok what you're getting at- ultimately these trappings of religion are part of the medium of power, and covers up the base desires of humanity, even when it becomes transhuman through space spice-psychic magic. Herbert's elaborate spiritual systems then become manifestations of the culture under religion, but don't hold true moral or philosophical significance that religion is supposed to have, because the true moral reality in his setting is ultimately still about power. I don't know, I haven't read the sequels, this interpretation might be really off-base.
  - bigger_cheese 3y ago
    >Herbert's elaborate spiritual systems then become manifestations of the culture under religion, but don't hold true moral or philosophical significance that religion is supposed to have, because the true moral reality in his setting is ultimately still about power. In the later novels it introduces the concept of "Arafel" a word which comes from the Hebrew word for darkness. It represents the apocalypse (the end of humanity) and the idea is that through the golden path humanity is steered away from Arafel, so there is a thin veneer of a moral justification beyond power..
kragen 3y ago
every religion is full of elements from previous religions zen buddhism can reasonably be thought of as a mix between daoism and buddhism pure land buddhism is basically christianity dressed in buddhist language modern hinduism is full of buddhist elements many central aspects of christian myth can be traced back to things like the resurrection of osiris many christian practices such as monogamy and christmas are obvious continuations of roman pagan religious practices, and of course 'easter' was a northern european fertility goddess (though she isn't the origin of the festival with her name; the corresponding holiday is called some version of 'pesach', 'passover', in non-norse languages) in many cases particular saints in syncretic catholicism in the new world can be identified with particular pre-conquest deities islam is largely judaism, but has clearly integrated a lot of non-jewish cultural elements and all of that is just in the last 2500 years! so it seems totally believable that in 26000 years things would be vastly more intertwingled
- throw4847285 3y ago
  This is both extremely reductive and also totally false. Obviously religions influence other religions, but all your examples don't hold up to scrutiny. Islam is just Judaism? What? Christmas isn't pagan. That's a myth. Modern Christmas was invented by German Protestants and then spread to England where it was given a huge shot in the arm by Charles Dickens. You're wrong about Zen Buddhism. Syncretism exists, but Herbert is just so lazy. He mashes together two different religions with very little in common other than Orientalism (his greatest vice as a creator).
  - kragen 3y ago
    i agree that you can say things that are totally false that use some of the same words as the things that i said