5 ms·

Honestly, the answers that the Miso founders gave seemed very professional and I think am a bit on their side in this one. If OP had asked for the bonus while

• chasing 14y ago
  That's not really how it works. If it's in an e-mail, it's a contract. Me: "Hey, if you do X I'll give you $10k." You: [Does X.] "Can I have my $10k?" Me: "Nah, the moment's passed. I'm not really feeling it anymore." Nope. That's sleazy behavior.
  • rb2k_ 14y ago
    As long as the email isn't as fully formulated as an actual contract I usually tend to see them more as a declaration of an intent that isn't 100% fixed yet and is missing some of the details. (such as: you won't get it after you decided to quit and work somewhere else). That's usually the nice thing about startups, you don't have to fill out gobs of paperwork and have hours of meetings to get these small perks figured out, it's more of a "good will" thing imho. But I guess I just have a different opinion when it comes to things that don't have 2 signatures at the bottom of them.
    • chasing 14y ago
      My understanding, rb2k_, is that if I make an offer for compensation in return for a service, and you then go perform that service, then we've made a contract. I "signed" my name by making the offer. You "signed" your name by accepting and completing the service. We've both acted out of free will and we've had a "meeting of the minds." If I back out and try to avoid paying you, then I have broken this contract. Think how many things in our society would break down if this wasn't the case.
    • scott_w 14y ago
      There are four elements of a contract: Offer - "Have $10k for referring employees." Acceptance - "Here is an employee." Intent - "Have $10k" Consideration - "$10k" -> "refer employee" The OP's case is even stronger if he sent an email back saying "Thanks for offering $10k! I have a friend who would be interested!" as that is clear acceptance. Signatures aren't needed (there's plenty of case law around). Courts are more likely to get involved where money is involved, as that shows firm commitment to a contract. I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, of course.
    • koeselitz 14y ago
      I agree that a lot of this stuff is informal, especially in the startup world. However, as far as actual legal implications go, this counts as a contract. It would even count as a contract if it were spoken; verbal contracts hold as much legal weight as paper contracts. I think we all value the relaxed atmosphere in smaller tech companies, but it's very much worth remembering, I think, that emails like this have weight, and promises are promises even when the company is small. There's a certain level on which we have to maintain professionalism even if we're small and dynamic.
    • pavel_lishin 14y ago
      > As long as the email isn't as fully formulated as an actual contract I usually tend to see them more as a declaration of an intent that isn't 100% fixed yet and is missing some of the details. Does this mean I can ignore these four e-mails from my boss that formulates his intent for me to work on X and Y, and skip on off to work on Z instead?
    • smsm42 14y ago
      Most contracts in practice are informal. When you buy an ice cream from a street vendor, there's an informal contract - you give him money, he gives you ice cream. If you take ice cream, eat it and then say "I'm not feeling like giving you money now" - it would be stealing, and you can't claim "I did not sign anything, so I am entitled to think that was just a gift". If you tell employee "do this and get $10K" and he does and you say "well, I'm not feeling like keeping my end of the bargain now" - it is no different. It is harder to enforce, but that's only difference that lets all kinds of sleazy characters get away with it. If you don't mean to give $10K - don't promise it. Nobody forces anybody to promise it. If you do promise - fulfill your promise. It's very simple, I wonder how people can have trouble with it - unless they meant to cheat at the first place.
    • jellicle 14y ago
      > But I guess I just have a different opinion when it comes to things that don't have 2 signatures at the bottom of them. Well, your opinion is certainly different than the judiciary's opinion of what constitutes a contract, for sure. A contract need not be written (usually, some exceptions apply). It need only be clear and agreed to by both sides, have some consideration involved and not be against public policy. If you as a startup owner promise people even verbally that referrals get a bonus, you're creating a binding contract if anyone accepts it. In this case it appears it was written down, which is pretty much a slam dunk for the employee.
    • zem 14y ago
      what you don't realise is that this sort of thing jeopardises the very "nice thing about startups" that you are (rightly) approving here. if the idea that you couldn't rely on someone's word seeped into the startup culture, people would start getting a lot more insistent on i-dotting and t-crossing, and pretty much no one would benefit from the concomitant rise in hostility.
    • aqme28 14y ago
      Do you realize how diametrically opposed your two points are? If an agreement is legally worthless unless it is formally stated, then all agreements will quickly become formally stated, and will devolve into "gobs of paperwork and hours of meetings." If informal agreements are considered contracts (which they legally are), then the startup (or whatever) won't need all that formal processing.
    • deleted 14y ago
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    • veemjeem 14y ago
      http://www.lplegal.com/publications/articles/when-email-becomes-binding-contract http://www.lplegal.com/publications/articles/when-email-beco... According to this legal source, the only way to prevent your email from being a contract is to "recite in the e-mail that there is no intention to create a contract, except pursuant to a separate written agreement." Also, you better change that opinion of yours, or else you might get caught in hot water yourself!
  • ditojim 14y ago
    the email could have said 10k for _current_ employees or something to that effect. i am also leaning towards siding with the founders here, not knowing all the facts. how much time and productivity did it cost the company when this employee lost the data? more or less than 10k? either side of it, does it really make sense to hand someone a 10k bonus after they made a major mistake and then quit shortly after?
    • chasing 14y ago
      It's two separate issues. Sounds like they owe him $10k. If they also want to pursue a lawsuit over his data screw-up, they should. But that's unrelated. (I think such a suit would be tossed, given his screw-up seems to be based upon Miso not having suitable back-ups, which: The fuck?)
      • droithomme 14y ago
        If they file a lawsuit against an employee for losing a database that they neglected to backup, I would love to hear a follow up story. I'm sure that after it gets out how they deal with routine mistakes they'll have highly qualified database engineers lining up at their door to work there because of the excitement of working in such a high stakes environment.
      • ditojim 14y ago
        and they very well might owe him the 10k. i was simply trying to consider the other side, which we don't know as much about, and i am assuming they made the best decision considering all the circumstances. maybe not. really, the employee should have collected this bonus prior to quitting his job. this could have been avoided if he was paying attention. i'd have a calendar appointment set for the date i was to receive that bonus, if i was that employee.
• jxi 14y ago
  The engineer communicated very professionally too. Just because you don't HAVE to not be an asshole, doesn't mean you SHOULD be an asshole. I agree with the engineer here since really this is something they promised at least informally and not delivering on it out of spite is just douchey.
  • rb2k_ 14y ago
    His blogpost was quite questionable imho. Things like these really read as very professional, at least to me: - "Impeccable logic." - ' At this point. You might as well just tell me "fuck you. you didn't sign a contract. boohoo." ' - ' I was starting to feel like they were determined to screw me.' - 'No. I'm not proud of threatening, but I was pissed.' - ' The rest of this chain of emails consists of me double checking if he understood what I was saying, and him giving me some more BS.' - 'This is unethical practice. Period.' - 'Somrat. Tim. Was this worth the 10k?'
    • jxi 14y ago
      Yea, I agree that his blogpost was more colorful, but his emails to the company seemed totally fine. He's basically just asking them for more or less a favor that they are not obliged to honor (like you pointed out), but is all this really worth the bad PR? The part that really bothers me is that one of the reasons they give for denying him this is a recent engineering mistake. It just feels like this is all out of spite, and it's more of a childish move more than anything.
    • deleted 14y ago
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    • smsm42 14y ago
      What "professional" means here? The person is being cheated out of $10K, how one is being professional about it? I do not know any profession that has "being cheated out of $10K" as part of its definition, and engineering professionalism definitely does not help you here. What a true professional would do in such case? Politely ask, get "screw you, we didn't sign anything" and go away? How would that be helpful? Really, for a professional engineer - which professional way of handling such situation would you recommend, providing that the law road is probably infeasible (you'll spend more in time and money on the lawsuit than you ever have a chance to recover)? As far as I know, there's no app for that and no python module for that, so which professional option should one take?
• unreal37 14y ago
  I tend to agree with @rb2k. There are payments you are entitled to by law (salary, vacation, personal expense reimbursement) and payments that companies do out of the goodness of their hearts (annual bonuses, lieu days, extra days off, referral bonuses). Don't quit under bad circumstances and expect to get money you're not by law entitled to. Should have gotten the money first.
  • ajross 14y ago
    That's not how the law works. The company advertised and promised a bonus. The fact that it didn't become a signed contract doesn't make it non-binding. It was payment for a service which was rendered. Obviously, yes: you should get the money before quitting. But Miso doesn't have a leg to stand on here unless they're hoping that pursuing the money isn't worth the poster's time (which might be a good bet, given that he didn't ask for the money originally).
  • TheCapn 14y ago
    You're only hitting half the points here. 1) Yes, a referral bonus is optional 2) It no longer becomes optional once you make the offer to your employees. At this point you have established intent; especially if it is provided in writing. You cannot take it back once the other party involved has upheld their end of the arrangement.
  • mikeash 14y ago
    If you are explicitly promised annual bonuses, lieu days, extra days off, or referral bonuses, and then they decide not to give them to you, then you most definitely are entitled to them. Just about everything in your first category is not an entitlement unless it's explicitly stated up front. If I get no promise of vacation days, then come back and demand them, I have no real standing. I can request them, but I'm not entitled to them. Likewise, everything in your second category is an entitlement if it's stated up front. If they say, "We're giving you a $X bonus this year to anyone who does Y" and then they don't, they are completely in the wrong.
  • veemjeem 14y ago
    It doesn't matter which category the payment falls into. If the amount was specified in an email from a stakeholder, with specific guidelines, it's cash due. When lawyers make a decision, they're not going to decide which bucket this amount is supposed to fall into.
• refurb 14y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't this fall under "promissory estoppel"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel
  • renata 14y ago
    Not unless he took action depending on the $10k, which it certainly doesn't seem like he did since he forgot about it for a while.
• mcantelon 14y ago
  > Seeing as a non-contractual bonus is an investment in the employee that the company does in addition to the usual compensation A bonus isn't a gift or an investment: it's paid to compensate for going above and beyond the call of duty. In this case, he did so by delivering a referral. He should be paid, plain and simple.
• ww520 14y ago
  A bonus is a contractual obligation, just like sales bonus salesperson get or revenue target bonus management get. In this case it's a payment for the recruitment service. It's not an informal bonus. Technical recruiters typically got 1/4 of yearly salary as payment. $10K recruitment bonus is cheap.
• dkokelley 14y ago
  This is really an interesting case, IMO. Verbal, informal contracts are still contracts, although they are a pain to enforce. A standing policy of a $10k referral bonus might be construed as a contract between the employer and employee. At the 6-month point the employee fulfilled his end of the contract, and was owed the $10k. What if the employee had come back two years later to say "hey, guys. Remember that $10k you owed me?" I'm no lawyer, but I believe that a judge would consider that a form of forfeiture. Where is that line drawn? I agree the tone seems to favor the employer, but tone doesn't make them right.
• dkokelley 14y ago
  This is really an interesting case, IMO. Verbal, informal contracts are still contracts, although they are a pain to enforce. A standing policy of a $10k referral bonus might be construed as a contract between the employer and employee. At the 6-month point the employee fulfilled his end of the contract, and was owed the $10k. What if the employee had come back two years later to say "hey, guys. Remember that $10k you owed me?" I'm no lawyer, but I believe that a judge would consider that a form of forfeiture. Where is that line drawn? I agree the tone seems to favor the employer, but tone doesn't make them right.
• adgar 14y ago
  > Josh, let me talk to Tim. > After you lost our data and caused our entire company to scramble for 3 days, I am hesitant. Extremely professional. They blew me away with that one.
  • jacquesm 14y ago
    Only 'a' has nothing to do with 'b'. Those things are independent. Also, any company that allows a single person to 'lose their data and cause the entire company to scramble for 3 days' has some issues with separation of duties.
• mquander 14y ago
  That doesn't make sense. A "nice extra that might disappear any second?" That's worth as much as a hole in my pocket. If giving referral bonuses is company policy, nobody would imagine that it might "disappear" retroactively if the management didn't happen to feel like paying you that day. Regardless of whether it's legal, it's totally unethical to behave that way.