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I'm in an EU country where this is a thing (Austria), and IT workers do have their own national labor union here (like most professions), but strikes that impac

I'm in an EU country where this is a thing (Austria), and IT workers do have their own national labor union here (like most professions), but strikes that impact the business are not allowed by law, because that would actually give workers leverage and we can't have that in capitalism, we just have to give the peasants the impression that their opinion maters. So all the IT workers could do was parade around the capital holding up signs asking for a wage raise matching inflation, but not turn off infrastructure or leave it unattended to rot/crash and loose their employers' money, as that would be illegal, even though that would be immensely effective at getting their demands met. So obviously, the protest and the union gave the IT workers fuck all in the end, resulting in a pitiful average wage increase below inflation levels, therefore an actual wage loss YoY. But hey, at least we can say we have unions on paper to look out for us, while IT workers here with Master's degrees earn less than janitors in Palo Alto, Cupertino or Mountain View. Toothless unions are worth exactly jack shit. If the law prohibits them from causing monetary losses to companies (the only language they understand), then they might as well not exist. From what I read here, I think only France and Sweden know how to do unions and strikes right in order to get what they want.

rvnx 3y ago
And then the union folks do everything to keep the power to themselves, and if you are not a member paying the union, they are not going to "protect" you.
- piva00 3y ago
  If you're not part of an organisation why would you expect them to protect you? You cannot have your cake and eat it too...
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
Interesting, I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) and I did not hear of such a restriction there. I am French and we have unions but anyone is free to go on strike on their own. Strikes are usually orchestrated by unions for the bang effect, but that's all. You can also strike against your business, I did not know that it possible not to. There are few exceptions for the strike freedom such as the police, army and maybe something more. Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market).
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) Workers' councils work similar to Germany (I think) but those are established on a per company basis and also have powers limited by law. I was talking about labor unions which negociate the yearly wage increases for the whole profession (Kollektivvertrag) which is also regulated by law in what they can and can't do in a strike. Basically you're allowed to publicly strike, as in make your demands heard, but you aren't allowed to sabotage or negatively impact the business in order to have your demands met. Isn't that convenient? /s >Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market). That only works when the merket is red hot, but not now, not here. The market is dead for everything excepting skilled seniors. You have to strike for the good of those who aren't senior enough to have leverage over their employer, like juniors and mids. Otherwise it's no surprise an IT worker here makes less money than a unionized tram driver.
  - BrandoElFollito 3y ago
    Thanks for the details. It looks like in France this is fundamentally different. We have the labor law which is the same for everyone. It says the basic things, but it is complete. If your sign a job contact, you can almost skip reading it because everything is codified and you cannot be screwed up. This also means that the negotiation is limited, even for salaries (the general rule is that you cannot be wildly different from a similar peer in terms of your benefits). Then we have collective agreements, which historically applied to a profession and were negotiated (sometimes very harshly) over the years. A company is part of a collective agreement and, on top of the labor law, applies better conditions from that agreement. The "profession" part is historical - my company, a high tech one, is part of the "metallurgy" collective agreement despite having nothing to do with metallurgy. But the metallurgy agreement is arguably the most favorable one (or one of the 2, 3 best ones) so great. Then we have unions, most of them are country-wide and a few specific to a company. They are bargaining with the company and form the core of the work council (this is France, do it is much more complicated than that :)). Unions call for company, profession or country wide strikes. Usually when it is the worst possible time for the population. We have an extreme love-hate relation with them. A strike (individual or group (the group one is 99.9% of the cases)) can (and does) impact the business, otherwise it would be quite useless. You cannot actively sabotage/vandalize your company (though it happens) but certainly do anything that hurts it: let it run unattended, block entrances, stop work and stop operations - the sky is the limit.
EchoChamberMan 3y ago
Without organization, labor has no power. It's unfortunate the unions don't have teeth, but I can't see a situation where individuals could ever stand up to centralized business entities.

rvnx 3y ago

And then the union folks do everything to keep the power to themselves, and if you are not a member paying the union, they are not going to "protect" you.

piva00 3y ago
If you're not part of an organisation why would you expect them to protect you? You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

BrandoElFollito 3y ago

Interesting, I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) and I did not hear of such a restriction there. I am French and we have unions but anyone is free to go on strike on their own. Strikes are usually orchestrated by unions for the bang effect, but that's all. You can also strike against your business, I did not know that it possible not to. There are few exceptions for the strike freedom such as the police, army and maybe something more. Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market).

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) Workers' councils work similar to Germany (I think) but those are established on a per company basis and also have powers limited by law. I was talking about labor unions which negociate the yearly wage increases for the whole profession (Kollektivvertrag) which is also regulated by law in what they can and can't do in a strike. Basically you're allowed to publicly strike, as in make your demands heard, but you aren't allowed to sabotage or negatively impact the business in order to have your demands met. Isn't that convenient? /s >Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market). That only works when the merket is red hot, but not now, not here. The market is dead for everything excepting skilled seniors. You have to strike for the good of those who aren't senior enough to have leverage over their employer, like juniors and mids. Otherwise it's no surprise an IT worker here makes less money than a unionized tram driver.
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  Thanks for the details. It looks like in France this is fundamentally different. We have the labor law which is the same for everyone. It says the basic things, but it is complete. If your sign a job contact, you can almost skip reading it because everything is codified and you cannot be screwed up. This also means that the negotiation is limited, even for salaries (the general rule is that you cannot be wildly different from a similar peer in terms of your benefits). Then we have collective agreements, which historically applied to a profession and were negotiated (sometimes very harshly) over the years. A company is part of a collective agreement and, on top of the labor law, applies better conditions from that agreement. The "profession" part is historical - my company, a high tech one, is part of the "metallurgy" collective agreement despite having nothing to do with metallurgy. But the metallurgy agreement is arguably the most favorable one (or one of the 2, 3 best ones) so great. Then we have unions, most of them are country-wide and a few specific to a company. They are bargaining with the company and form the core of the work council (this is France, do it is much more complicated than that :)). Unions call for company, profession or country wide strikes. Usually when it is the worst possible time for the population. We have an extreme love-hate relation with them. A strike (individual or group (the group one is 99.9% of the cases)) can (and does) impact the business, otherwise it would be quite useless. You cannot actively sabotage/vandalize your company (though it happens) but certainly do anything that hurts it: let it run unattended, block entrances, stop work and stop operations - the sky is the limit.

EchoChamberMan 3y ago

Without organization, labor has no power. It's unfortunate the unions don't have teeth, but I can't see a situation where individuals could ever stand up to centralized business entities.