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Why does anything fun end up as a compact keyboard with no numeric pad and cramped navigation keys? How am I supposed to write code or even play a game on this

Why does anything fun end up as a compact keyboard with no numeric pad and cramped navigation keys? How am I supposed to write code or even play a game on this? And tbh... people who would be interested in this have multiple monitors, or one very large monitor. There should be plenty of space in front of it for a full size keyboard.

relyks 3y ago
I personally like preserving as much desk space as possible and I find that a numeric pad isn't essential. I don't input numbers a lot. Navigation keys are very useful for coding though...
- garciasn 3y ago
  Look at this psychopath not using vi/m. I’m kidding. I use VSCodium on the desktop and heavily modded vim on VMs.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Well i use pgup/down and home/end extensively. Grew up with Borland IDEs. The numpad... maybe i could live without it, but I do use it.
    - sonicanatidae 3y ago
      I keyed in games from magazines into things like a Vic-20, or C-64 or Ti99-4a, as a kid. To me, the lack of a tenkey means it's not really a kbd, just a toy.
  - sonicanatidae 3y ago
    I used vi for about 5 years, then figured out how to exit it. ba-dum-tiss I'll see myself out.
flylikeabanana 3y ago
Tenkeyless (TKL) keyboards are popular because you can keep your mouse hand closer to your keyboard. The tenkey is a easy thing to lose if you don't do much data entry. As for writing code and playing games, I use vim keybinds everywhere and play games with WASD controls. So nav keys aren't particularly critical either.
- LegitShady 3y ago
  most people spend too long all day hunching their shoulders because they're typing. They would be better off if they didn't bring their hands closer together. That's the whole advantage of split keyboards too.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Split keyboards are a much better way to accomplish that, though. Standard keyboards end up pushing the home row way off-center no matter what, which for me at least is uncomfortable for anything but short bursts of typing.
    - LegitShady 3y ago
      I agree unfortunately at the moment there aren't any wireless split keyboards in my budget and my history with keyboards is such that I consider them consumables and paying $300 for one is too much for me to consider.
- derekp7 3y ago
  If it doesn't have the 10-key, then at least put the top number keys in the standard typewriter position. This keyboard has the number keys shifted to the left a bit by about a quarter key width, which will cause errors for touch typists that also touch-type the number keys.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  For a long time, I used TKL with a separate numpad that I placed on the left of my keyboard. Helped to eliminate some elbow pain I was getting from having my elbow cocked sideways.
gigaflop 3y ago
When people are already chopping out numpads, etc, in their custom designs, they can afford an extra horizontal inch of space on their keebs for fancy features, without getting too big. For a large segment of people, a keyboard like this has everything they need on it: WASD, numrow, arrows.
- slily 3y ago
  You could easily fit extra controls on a full-size keyboard as long as the keyboard and mouse are not wider than your shoulders. TKL has no ergonomic benefit, it's just an opinionated design decision which is common today because people don't learn to use a numeric pad. Cramped designs are good for portability, but bad for ergonomics. Personally, I will never buy a TKL keyboard. I may rarely use the numeric pad, but rarely is not never, and I can think of a few specific use cases aside from typing in numbers quickly that require one. I wouldn't mind a keyboard with even more keys to provide better coverage of legacy layouts.
  - gigaflop 3y ago
    I daily-drove an IBM Model M that was a few months older than me, for about a summer. I love it, but it's just so comically oversized for my desk, even while using a deskpad. Modern custom mech boards, like my current TKL, allow for extra function layers. You can hypothetically set up a 'numpad layer' on '890', 'iop', kl;', actuated by a layer key that can be held with a finger on the left side of the board. Less overall movement of one's fingers and arms, with equal access to the numpad functionality, if one needs it. If you want a proof of that concept, see the Planck. Hypothetically, this little thing could replace your desired 'Space Cadet' or 'Battlestation' style keyboard with less than 50 buttons: https://olkb.com/collections/planck https://olkb.com/collections/planck
someotherperson 3y ago
I've been writing code for many years and have never needed a numeric pad. My keyboard since about 2015 doesn't even have navigation keys: I use a combination of the caps lock (reprogrammed as a function key) and IJKL. Works fine for me.
jwells89 3y ago
Integrated numpads and navkeys end up gathering dust most of the time for my usage. I like the macOS global text nav shortcuts[0][1] better than the typical dedicated keys, and I rarely enter numbers in great enough quantity that speed matters. For the odd occasion I do need to enter numbers, I have a separate numpad I can pull out and set to the left of my keyboard, where it’s not dislocating my keyboard’s home row or messing with mousing space. [0]: https://jblevins.org/log/kbd https://jblevins.org/log/kbd [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220217071143/https://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/system-bindings.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220217071143/https://www.hcs.h...
tetrisgm 3y ago
It's crazy because as a leftie, my numpad is your wasd. So many laptops and fun keyboards I cannot use.
j_crick 3y ago
My thoughts exactly... No numpad? No normal arrows? Naaaaah that's not a keyboard of my dreams at all
pimlottc 3y ago
It doesn't apply to this particular model, but many of the custom mechanical keyboards are built by hand (sometimes from kits), so it's less work to make a pared down version.
TacticalCoder 3y ago
> How am I supposed to write code... You write code... using the numpad? > There should be plenty of space in front of it for a full size keyboard. That's not the reason. Most people are right handed and most keyboard have the numpad at the left. Most people also put their mouse at the right of their keyboard. This makes reaching for the mouse a major nuisance. Without a numpad or with a numpad on the side where you don't have your mouse, that problem disappears. Now of course there are other pointing devices (trackpoint, trackpad, etc.) and some are located in the middle. But the undisputable fact is this: most people are right handed and most people have a regular mouse and that mouse is located at the right of the keyboard. Numpad sucks in that case. Back in the days I didn't know about keyboards with numpads on the left of the keyboard and 60% keyboards weren't really a thing yet so although I'm right-handed I started using my mouse as a leftie (and still do to this day). 60% keyboard like the HHKB (one of the "OG" 60%) aren't about the lack of space in front of the monitor. It's about grabbing the mouse and coming back to the keyboard with less hand travel.
- slily 3y ago
  I have never seen a keyboard with a number pad on the left-hand side in my life and I have never bought a keyboard without a number pad. I also don't have coordination issues with my right hand and have never heard anyone complain about not being able to reach their mouse because of a number pad. Go figure.
  - pathartl 3y ago
    Boards with number pads on the left are called south paws. I'm a lefty and I've always thought the numpad is in a more convenient location on the right, but what do I know.
  - thot_experiment 3y ago
    It depends on how you use your mouse, I tend to keep one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard for a lot of the day and it's frustrating not having space to swing left when there's a numpad. I've been using a tenkeyless and an external numpad for many years now and find it much preferable to a full-size keeb.
mamcx 3y ago
I have a similar complaint!, I'm looking for an MS ergo keyboard and nothing is close. I can live without the numpad, but the lack of function rows, and the introduction of forced, convoluted "chords" or whatever (what kind of "ergonomics" is that?), kill all the options I know. BTW mine is: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0/finished_ergo_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0... --- Another way to say this is that ergonomics is personal, and it is hard to find something universal. For me, ergonomics is: not need to do maneuvers with the fingers, so I even added more keys to my keyboard stuff like "Ctrl + B" and others with a single press. But yes, is kind of obvious that there are not enough options in this niche market and the "let's do this as small as possible, all people like to do gymnastics with fingers!" are THE majority of the options... !

relyks 3y ago

I personally like preserving as much desk space as possible and I find that a numeric pad isn't essential. I don't input numbers a lot. Navigation keys are very useful for coding though...

garciasn 3y ago
Look at this psychopath not using vi/m. I’m kidding. I use VSCodium on the desktop and heavily modded vim on VMs.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Well i use pgup/down and home/end extensively. Grew up with Borland IDEs. The numpad... maybe i could live without it, but I do use it.
  - sonicanatidae 3y ago
    I keyed in games from magazines into things like a Vic-20, or C-64 or Ti99-4a, as a kid. To me, the lack of a tenkey means it's not really a kbd, just a toy.
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  I used vi for about 5 years, then figured out how to exit it. ba-dum-tiss I'll see myself out.

flylikeabanana 3y ago

Tenkeyless (TKL) keyboards are popular because you can keep your mouse hand closer to your keyboard. The tenkey is a easy thing to lose if you don't do much data entry. As for writing code and playing games, I use vim keybinds everywhere and play games with WASD controls. So nav keys aren't particularly critical either.

LegitShady 3y ago
most people spend too long all day hunching their shoulders because they're typing. They would be better off if they didn't bring their hands closer together. That's the whole advantage of split keyboards too.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Split keyboards are a much better way to accomplish that, though. Standard keyboards end up pushing the home row way off-center no matter what, which for me at least is uncomfortable for anything but short bursts of typing.
  - LegitShady 3y ago
    I agree unfortunately at the moment there aren't any wireless split keyboards in my budget and my history with keyboards is such that I consider them consumables and paying $300 for one is too much for me to consider.
derekp7 3y ago
If it doesn't have the 10-key, then at least put the top number keys in the standard typewriter position. This keyboard has the number keys shifted to the left a bit by about a quarter key width, which will cause errors for touch typists that also touch-type the number keys.
SkyPuncher 3y ago
For a long time, I used TKL with a separate numpad that I placed on the left of my keyboard. Helped to eliminate some elbow pain I was getting from having my elbow cocked sideways.

gigaflop 3y ago

When people are already chopping out numpads, etc, in their custom designs, they can afford an extra horizontal inch of space on their keebs for fancy features, without getting too big. For a large segment of people, a keyboard like this has everything they need on it: WASD, numrow, arrows.

slily 3y ago
You could easily fit extra controls on a full-size keyboard as long as the keyboard and mouse are not wider than your shoulders. TKL has no ergonomic benefit, it's just an opinionated design decision which is common today because people don't learn to use a numeric pad. Cramped designs are good for portability, but bad for ergonomics. Personally, I will never buy a TKL keyboard. I may rarely use the numeric pad, but rarely is not never, and I can think of a few specific use cases aside from typing in numbers quickly that require one. I wouldn't mind a keyboard with even more keys to provide better coverage of legacy layouts.
- gigaflop 3y ago
  I daily-drove an IBM Model M that was a few months older than me, for about a summer. I love it, but it's just so comically oversized for my desk, even while using a deskpad. Modern custom mech boards, like my current TKL, allow for extra function layers. You can hypothetically set up a 'numpad layer' on '890', 'iop', kl;', actuated by a layer key that can be held with a finger on the left side of the board. Less overall movement of one's fingers and arms, with equal access to the numpad functionality, if one needs it. If you want a proof of that concept, see the Planck. Hypothetically, this little thing could replace your desired 'Space Cadet' or 'Battlestation' style keyboard with less than 50 buttons: https://olkb.com/collections/planck https://olkb.com/collections/planck

someotherperson 3y ago

I've been writing code for many years and have never needed a numeric pad. My keyboard since about 2015 doesn't even have navigation keys: I use a combination of the caps lock (reprogrammed as a function key) and IJKL. Works fine for me.

jwells89 3y ago

Integrated numpads and navkeys end up gathering dust most of the time for my usage. I like the macOS global text nav shortcuts[0][1] better than the typical dedicated keys, and I rarely enter numbers in great enough quantity that speed matters. For the odd occasion I do need to enter numbers, I have a separate numpad I can pull out and set to the left of my keyboard, where it’s not dislocating my keyboard’s home row or messing with mousing space. [0]: https://jblevins.org/log/kbd https://jblevins.org/log/kbd [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220217071143/https://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/system-bindings.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220217071143/https://www.hcs.h...

tetrisgm 3y ago

It's crazy because as a leftie, my numpad is your wasd. So many laptops and fun keyboards I cannot use.

j_crick 3y ago

My thoughts exactly... No numpad? No normal arrows? Naaaaah that's not a keyboard of my dreams at all

pimlottc 3y ago

It doesn't apply to this particular model, but many of the custom mechanical keyboards are built by hand (sometimes from kits), so it's less work to make a pared down version.

TacticalCoder 3y ago

> How am I supposed to write code... You write code... using the numpad? > There should be plenty of space in front of it for a full size keyboard. That's not the reason. Most people are right handed and most keyboard have the numpad at the left. Most people also put their mouse at the right of their keyboard. This makes reaching for the mouse a major nuisance. Without a numpad or with a numpad on the side where you don't have your mouse, that problem disappears. Now of course there are other pointing devices (trackpoint, trackpad, etc.) and some are located in the middle. But the undisputable fact is this: most people are right handed and most people have a regular mouse and that mouse is located at the right of the keyboard. Numpad sucks in that case. Back in the days I didn't know about keyboards with numpads on the left of the keyboard and 60% keyboards weren't really a thing yet so although I'm right-handed I started using my mouse as a leftie (and still do to this day). 60% keyboard like the HHKB (one of the "OG" 60%) aren't about the lack of space in front of the monitor. It's about grabbing the mouse and coming back to the keyboard with less hand travel.

slily 3y ago
I have never seen a keyboard with a number pad on the left-hand side in my life and I have never bought a keyboard without a number pad. I also don't have coordination issues with my right hand and have never heard anyone complain about not being able to reach their mouse because of a number pad. Go figure.
- pathartl 3y ago
  Boards with number pads on the left are called south paws. I'm a lefty and I've always thought the numpad is in a more convenient location on the right, but what do I know.
- thot_experiment 3y ago
  It depends on how you use your mouse, I tend to keep one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard for a lot of the day and it's frustrating not having space to swing left when there's a numpad. I've been using a tenkeyless and an external numpad for many years now and find it much preferable to a full-size keeb.

mamcx 3y ago

I have a similar complaint!, I'm looking for an MS ergo keyboard and nothing is close. I can live without the numpad, but the lack of function rows, and the introduction of forced, convoluted "chords" or whatever (what kind of "ergonomics" is that?), kill all the options I know. BTW mine is: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0/finished_ergo_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0... --- Another way to say this is that ergonomics is personal, and it is hard to find something universal. For me, ergonomics is: not need to do maneuvers with the fingers, so I even added more keys to my keyboard stuff like "Ctrl + B" and others with a single press. But yes, is kind of obvious that there are not enough options in this niche market and the "let's do this as small as possible, all people like to do gymnastics with fingers!" are THE majority of the options... !