6 ms·

For people living in apartments, with the building providing no way to charge your vehicle, especially when parked outside, the value proposition is a lot less

For people living in apartments, with the building providing no way to charge your vehicle, especially when parked outside, the value proposition is a lot less tempting. Takes 5 minutes to get gas, gas stations are everywhere, but having to find a charging station for your EV and having to sit there for an hour or longer is just not appealing if the tradeoff is the good feelings of one's microscopic contribution to saving the planet. You want me to pay more for extra inconvenience. I'm sure that will change eventually, but at this point it works best for home owners with garages, which isn't everybody.

yazaddaruvala 3y ago
I agree. That said when I borrow my parents Tesla, I just charge while at work. Additionally, it’s free :P
vhold 3y ago
My apartment complex won't even let you park an EV inside or under any of the structures because of the fear they have of EV fires.
- two_handfuls 3y ago
  Gasoline cars are much more likely to catch fire than EVs. They just don’t make the news. “per 100,000 cars sold in each category, electric vehicles had the lowest number of fires.” Source: https://www.popsci.com/technology/electric-vehicle-fire-rates-study/ https://www.popsci.com/technology/electric-vehicle-fire-rate...
  - wakawaka28 3y ago
    An EV fire is at least 10x worse than a gas vehicle fire. Hybrid fires due to batteries are also misclassified as petrol fires. If you catch a gas fire in time it can be put out with a bit of water or a fire extinguisher. It is also exceedingly rare. An EV fire is not extinguishable, burns several times hotter than any petrol fire, may reignite for weeks or months, and emits shocking volumes of toxic gasses that can injure anyone around. Although the fires can't be extinguished, firefighters still spray hundreds of thousands of liters of water onto battery fires, and that water is polluted and not captured. The whole thing is a nightmare. The possibility of EVs catching fire all together inside an underground parking garage in a high rise should scare the hell out of anyone sane. Sprinkers will do nothing for that, and all that heat could permanently damage the building. The gasses could suffocate anyone unlucky enough to get stuck down below.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      > It is also exceedingly rare. And EV fires are even rarer. The people who study fires disagree with your other points: https://www.ri.se/sites/default/files/2020-12/FRIC%20D1.2-2020_01%20FIVE%20conference%20presentation%20Multi-storey%20car%20park%20fire%2C%20presentation.pdf https://www.ri.se/sites/default/files/2020-12/FRIC%20D1.2-20... > Observations during the fire indicate that electric vehicles did not contribute to the fire development beyond what is expected from conventional vehicles.
      - wakawaka28 3y ago
        That's very funny. If you have ever seen these EV fires you'll know that they are no joke. Have a look at this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13005001/london-bus-fire-panic-capital-flames.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13005001/london-bus... Have you EVER heard of even one petrol-powered bus catching fire, much less multiple in a few weeks in one city? Insurance companies are drastically raising rates on EVs as more information comes in: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-wer... There are many reasons for this, among them the fire hazard. The EVs cost more to fix, of course, but EV batteries can reignite weeks or months after being damaged or catching on fire. So they must also be stored very far apart while being repaired. Ferries do not want EVs on board because of the fire hazard: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/norwegian-ferry-company-bans-electrified-vehicles-from-transport-on-its-ships-208942.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/norwegian-ferry-company-b... This firefighting expert says why these fires are much worse than ICE fires in a thorough presentation at a conference. The audio sucks but the info is gold: https://youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw https://youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw I can't say if this battery replacement costs more than the car because of fire hazards. But I think it was deemed in need of replacement because of possible fire hazards. You be the judge: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-i... If you do a little actual research about lithium battery fires, all of what I'm saying will be very obvious. Idk where your slides came from but they sound very wrong.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
reducesuffering 3y ago
> having to find a charging station for your EV and having to sit there for an hour or longer A Tesla can supercharge 200 miles in 15 minutes
- xenospn 3y ago
  If you can find a free charger. Where I live (LA) there’s long queues more often than not.
  - frumper 3y ago
    I imagine a gas station giving out free gas would also have a long queue.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  And you can go grab a Starbucks without sucking down a bunch of carcinogenic fumes during that time. I have a home charger but never use it. I have never once wished I could go to a gas station, and whenever I drive a dinosaur fume contraption and end up at a gas station I’m reminded of what a filthy end to end system the age of fire was. I’m glad to see the age of Maxwell begin.
- jajko 3y ago
  Here in Geneva, Switzerland there is exactly one place with superchargers, metro area easily over 1.5 million and some of the wealthiest and most powerful folks live here or often move through here. I think they have 24 chargers altogether in that spot. Next nearest in Switzerland is some 120km away. That's basically a non-existent network. Colleague who has model S told me he can charge at his house cca 9km/hour. With commuting he ends up almost empty at the end of the work week, and has this additional worry constantly. Service outside warranty is supposedly sky high. Not that great a proposition.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    To be fair service outside of warranty for luxury cars in general is pretty sky high, especially absent a trusted independent mechanic who you can work with. But, yeah, I haven't seriously considered an EV. There isn't a model in my sweet spot, I don't drive much on a day-to-day basis and, when I do, it can be fairly long drives to fairly remote areas. Maybe someday but I'm either on a road trip or fuel stops are generally weeeks apart from each other.
rainsford 3y ago
That's definitely true, but that still leaves a pretty large potential market for home owners with garages (i.e. people for whom an EV is a decent value proposition) that is far from saturated. My guess is that by the time the garage owner market for EVs is getting tapped out, the charging problem for everyone else will have been solved as well. I also think the market forces work the other way around. I currently own my home, but it's a condo with a shared parking lot and no way to charge an EV. I've been looking to upgrade at some point, and one of my non-negotiable requirements is that whatever I buy next needs to have a way to charge an EV at home (private garage with power, shared parking with the ability to install charges, etc). As EV market share increased, I expect this to create more and more pressure on the housing market to meet home charging needs.

yazaddaruvala 3y ago

I agree. That said when I borrow my parents Tesla, I just charge while at work. Additionally, it’s free :P

vhold 3y ago

My apartment complex won't even let you park an EV inside or under any of the structures because of the fear they have of EV fires.

two_handfuls 3y ago
Gasoline cars are much more likely to catch fire than EVs. They just don’t make the news. “per 100,000 cars sold in each category, electric vehicles had the lowest number of fires.” Source: https://www.popsci.com/technology/electric-vehicle-fire-rates-study/ https://www.popsci.com/technology/electric-vehicle-fire-rate...
- wakawaka28 3y ago
  An EV fire is at least 10x worse than a gas vehicle fire. Hybrid fires due to batteries are also misclassified as petrol fires. If you catch a gas fire in time it can be put out with a bit of water or a fire extinguisher. It is also exceedingly rare. An EV fire is not extinguishable, burns several times hotter than any petrol fire, may reignite for weeks or months, and emits shocking volumes of toxic gasses that can injure anyone around. Although the fires can't be extinguished, firefighters still spray hundreds of thousands of liters of water onto battery fires, and that water is polluted and not captured. The whole thing is a nightmare. The possibility of EVs catching fire all together inside an underground parking garage in a high rise should scare the hell out of anyone sane. Sprinkers will do nothing for that, and all that heat could permanently damage the building. The gasses could suffocate anyone unlucky enough to get stuck down below.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    > It is also exceedingly rare. And EV fires are even rarer. The people who study fires disagree with your other points: https://www.ri.se/sites/default/files/2020-12/FRIC%20D1.2-2020_01%20FIVE%20conference%20presentation%20Multi-storey%20car%20park%20fire%2C%20presentation.pdf https://www.ri.se/sites/default/files/2020-12/FRIC%20D1.2-20... > Observations during the fire indicate that electric vehicles did not contribute to the fire development beyond what is expected from conventional vehicles.
    - wakawaka28 3y ago
      That's very funny. If you have ever seen these EV fires you'll know that they are no joke. Have a look at this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13005001/london-bus-fire-panic-capital-flames.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13005001/london-bus... Have you EVER heard of even one petrol-powered bus catching fire, much less multiple in a few weeks in one city? Insurance companies are drastically raising rates on EVs as more information comes in: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-wer... There are many reasons for this, among them the fire hazard. The EVs cost more to fix, of course, but EV batteries can reignite weeks or months after being damaged or catching on fire. So they must also be stored very far apart while being repaired. Ferries do not want EVs on board because of the fire hazard: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/norwegian-ferry-company-bans-electrified-vehicles-from-transport-on-its-ships-208942.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/norwegian-ferry-company-b... This firefighting expert says why these fires are much worse than ICE fires in a thorough presentation at a conference. The audio sucks but the info is gold: https://youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw https://youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw I can't say if this battery replacement costs more than the car because of fire hazards. But I think it was deemed in need of replacement because of possible fire hazards. You be the judge: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-i... If you do a little actual research about lithium battery fires, all of what I'm saying will be very obvious. Idk where your slides came from but they sound very wrong.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

reducesuffering 3y ago

> having to find a charging station for your EV and having to sit there for an hour or longer A Tesla can supercharge 200 miles in 15 minutes

xenospn 3y ago
If you can find a free charger. Where I live (LA) there’s long queues more often than not.
- frumper 3y ago
  I imagine a gas station giving out free gas would also have a long queue.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
And you can go grab a Starbucks without sucking down a bunch of carcinogenic fumes during that time. I have a home charger but never use it. I have never once wished I could go to a gas station, and whenever I drive a dinosaur fume contraption and end up at a gas station I’m reminded of what a filthy end to end system the age of fire was. I’m glad to see the age of Maxwell begin.
jajko 3y ago
Here in Geneva, Switzerland there is exactly one place with superchargers, metro area easily over 1.5 million and some of the wealthiest and most powerful folks live here or often move through here. I think they have 24 chargers altogether in that spot. Next nearest in Switzerland is some 120km away. That's basically a non-existent network. Colleague who has model S told me he can charge at his house cca 9km/hour. With commuting he ends up almost empty at the end of the work week, and has this additional worry constantly. Service outside warranty is supposedly sky high. Not that great a proposition.
- ghaff 3y ago
  To be fair service outside of warranty for luxury cars in general is pretty sky high, especially absent a trusted independent mechanic who you can work with. But, yeah, I haven't seriously considered an EV. There isn't a model in my sweet spot, I don't drive much on a day-to-day basis and, when I do, it can be fairly long drives to fairly remote areas. Maybe someday but I'm either on a road trip or fuel stops are generally weeeks apart from each other.

rainsford 3y ago

That's definitely true, but that still leaves a pretty large potential market for home owners with garages (i.e. people for whom an EV is a decent value proposition) that is far from saturated. My guess is that by the time the garage owner market for EVs is getting tapped out, the charging problem for everyone else will have been solved as well. I also think the market forces work the other way around. I currently own my home, but it's a condo with a shared parking lot and no way to charge an EV. I've been looking to upgrade at some point, and one of my non-negotiable requirements is that whatever I buy next needs to have a way to charge an EV at home (private garage with power, shared parking with the ability to install charges, etc). As EV market share increased, I expect this to create more and more pressure on the housing market to meet home charging needs.