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>are we wayland yet? No, No I am not, because things I care about are broken, and all of the supposed improvements wayland offers simply don't bother me. I've

>are we wayland yet? No, No I am not, because things I care about are broken, and all of the supposed improvements wayland offers simply don't bother me. I've tried it, yes it feels a little snappier sometimes, but that's not a huge priority for me, personally. X11 is fine.

irthomasthomas 3y ago
Wayland feels like a different operating system to Linux. Linuw? I can't do this in linuw: https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/1763219017160867840 https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/17632190171608678...
- SahAssar 3y ago
  X11 was neither developed for or is a part of linux. Like I get the folks who consider the GNU userland tools to be a part of the "linux"-and-stuff-we-expect-to-be-bundled, but X11 is pretty separate. Either way screen recording is working in all major wayland WMs, so you can do that in "linuw" (or whatever you choose to call it)
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Yeah, X11 really isn't a Linux thing at all; I think the association is just that Linux distros are the current hacker/poweruser OS of choice, for a lot of reasons including tools that let people do cool/powerful things with the system, and X11 is one of those tools (or the backing framework for them, at least). I don't know what screen recording has to do with anything? Like, yes Wayland also makes the computer vision half of that example harder (you can do it in all major compositors, but details vary and GNOME is outright hostile to automating it) but Wayland doesn't have an answer to xdotool which is arguably the bigger component. (I am aware of tools like ydotool and such, but AFAIK they're all significantly weaker; they can blindly inject emulated key/mouse events, but not, say, target specific windows)
    - SahAssar 3y ago
      Ah, I misunderstood which part was a problem on wayland. I haven't used either xdotool or ydotool much, and for automating stuff that is in a browser I have used the browser APIs instead.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    On the flip side, though, it does seem that Wayland has been developed with a sort of "Linux first" attitude. Not that it's impossible to run on other OSes, but there are bits and bobs here and there that show the Linux bias.
  - stonogo 3y ago
    X11 was not initially developed for linux, but every major X11 platform -- Linux, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and FreeBSD -- uses Linux's graphics stack to display X11 at this point. It's been that way since the KMS/DRM introduction. I would say that X11 is not separate at all, today, regardless of its origins.
The_Colonel 3y ago
I don't really care about Wayland either, tbh I don't even know/care if I run it or X11 at the moment. But while X11 is still OK to use today, it will likely fall behind with it getting less maintenance and less testing by DEs.
pygar 3y ago
Some point soon the major distros are going to make Wayland the default and the Linux desktop will be "mostly working if you stick to certain apps" for a little bit. There is no faster way to fix software problems then pushing it prod.
JohnFen 3y ago
My situation is similar, except it's not Wayland bugs, it's functionality that X provides but Wayland doesn't.
- hypothesis 3y ago
  I’m fairly certain that the plan is to jettison X before next RHEL release. So if your cases are not resolved, and we’re looking at decades by now, then it’s going to get “interesting” at that point. So they make Gnome X-less, then debian will incorporate that, then other DEs will get less attention, etc… It will go downhill fast from there on.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't use RHEL or Gnome, so I can ignore them for now. I've begun the process of moving all of my machines away from Linux and to BSD anyway. While I have so many that the effort will probably take a couple of years to complete, perhaps I can complete it before I really get bit by this issue. Or, worst case, I'll just stop updating and keep everything frozen on a version that meets my needs
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    > So they make Gnome X-less, then debian will incorporate that, then other DEs will get less attention, etc… It will go downhill fast from there on. I'm not seeing the progression there; of course I can easily imagine GNOME dropping X support, and sure Debian isn't going to patch it in (probably), but... so what? Nothing about that affects other DEs/WMs.

irthomasthomas 3y ago

Wayland feels like a different operating system to Linux. Linuw? I can't do this in linuw: https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/1763219017160867840 https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/17632190171608678...

SahAssar 3y ago
X11 was neither developed for or is a part of linux. Like I get the folks who consider the GNU userland tools to be a part of the "linux"-and-stuff-we-expect-to-be-bundled, but X11 is pretty separate. Either way screen recording is working in all major wayland WMs, so you can do that in "linuw" (or whatever you choose to call it)
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Yeah, X11 really isn't a Linux thing at all; I think the association is just that Linux distros are the current hacker/poweruser OS of choice, for a lot of reasons including tools that let people do cool/powerful things with the system, and X11 is one of those tools (or the backing framework for them, at least). I don't know what screen recording has to do with anything? Like, yes Wayland also makes the computer vision half of that example harder (you can do it in all major compositors, but details vary and GNOME is outright hostile to automating it) but Wayland doesn't have an answer to xdotool which is arguably the bigger component. (I am aware of tools like ydotool and such, but AFAIK they're all significantly weaker; they can blindly inject emulated key/mouse events, but not, say, target specific windows)
  - SahAssar 3y ago
    Ah, I misunderstood which part was a problem on wayland. I haven't used either xdotool or ydotool much, and for automating stuff that is in a browser I have used the browser APIs instead.
- kelnos 3y ago
  On the flip side, though, it does seem that Wayland has been developed with a sort of "Linux first" attitude. Not that it's impossible to run on other OSes, but there are bits and bobs here and there that show the Linux bias.
- stonogo 3y ago
  X11 was not initially developed for linux, but every major X11 platform -- Linux, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and FreeBSD -- uses Linux's graphics stack to display X11 at this point. It's been that way since the KMS/DRM introduction. I would say that X11 is not separate at all, today, regardless of its origins.

The_Colonel 3y ago

I don't really care about Wayland either, tbh I don't even know/care if I run it or X11 at the moment. But while X11 is still OK to use today, it will likely fall behind with it getting less maintenance and less testing by DEs.

pygar 3y ago

Some point soon the major distros are going to make Wayland the default and the Linux desktop will be "mostly working if you stick to certain apps" for a little bit. There is no faster way to fix software problems then pushing it prod.

JohnFen 3y ago

My situation is similar, except it's not Wayland bugs, it's functionality that X provides but Wayland doesn't.

hypothesis 3y ago
I’m fairly certain that the plan is to jettison X before next RHEL release. So if your cases are not resolved, and we’re looking at decades by now, then it’s going to get “interesting” at that point. So they make Gnome X-less, then debian will incorporate that, then other DEs will get less attention, etc… It will go downhill fast from there on.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I don't use RHEL or Gnome, so I can ignore them for now. I've begun the process of moving all of my machines away from Linux and to BSD anyway. While I have so many that the effort will probably take a couple of years to complete, perhaps I can complete it before I really get bit by this issue. Or, worst case, I'll just stop updating and keep everything frozen on a version that meets my needs
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > So they make Gnome X-less, then debian will incorporate that, then other DEs will get less attention, etc… It will go downhill fast from there on. I'm not seeing the progression there; of course I can easily imagine GNOME dropping X support, and sure Debian isn't going to patch it in (probably), but... so what? Nothing about that affects other DEs/WMs.