4 ms·
Technically the Fremen aren't exactly Muslim (although they seem to be Muslim-coded) -- they are members of a new religion called Zen-Sunni, which was formed wh
by jhbadger 3y ago
Technically the Fremen aren't exactly Muslim (although they seem to be Muslim-coded) -- they are members of a new religion called Zen-Sunni, which was formed when Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam merged at some point in the future. And the other major religion Orange Catholicism presumably likewise is a merge of Protestantism ("Orange") back into Catholic Christianity.
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoI wish there was more background on this. What was original concept with putting Zen Buddhism and Islam together? Did Herbert have a plan for this combo, or was he just making up some future backstory? Like sometimes happens when authors aren't really sure there will be a sequel at all, and just scatter some future references around.
- wirrbel 3y agoIf i recall correctly zensunni in the book also used/read the orange-catholic bible. Overall I think the topic of religion stays vague apart from Herbert making use of the trope of a Messiah and using syncretism as a symbol that major shifts happened in the human societies that brought opposing religions together.
- simonh 3y agoIn particular the OC Bible was compiled as a synthesis of all the major existing religious traditions of the time after the Butlerian Jihad, which united humanity in revolt against the thinking machines. The resulting total ban on computational devices as heresy lead to the rise of the Spacing Guild’s monopoly on interstellar navigation.
- Apocryphon 3y agoIt was set dressing for a syncretic far future. All of this stuff is in the appendix where it is not very much explored because it's meant to be evocative more than illustrative.
- mrexroad 3y ago> it's meant to be evocative more than illustrative Agree, and those evocative references were one of things I loved when first reading the Dune series many years ago as well as watching the '84 film. I still remember being taken aback at the reference to "Emperor Hitler" and the fact that knowledge of him was (rightfully) lost with time, but also along with most other knowledge of our era.
- throw4847285 3y agoExactly. For most scifi/fantasy writers, religion is window dressing. Very few care unless they are writing explicitly and very consciously about real world religions via a thinly veiled allegory. The ones that come to mind for me are Dan Simmons, Walter Miller, and Philip K Dick. If you remember the Priest's Tale from Hyperion or Mercerism in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, you know what I'm talking about.
- Apocryphon 3y agoTo be fair, I don't think religion is window dressing in Dune, it's just the specifics of how society came to be so syncretic that they end up compiling the OC Bible doesn't need to be examined (other than the hazily-sketched out narrative about the Council of Ecumenical Translators in the appendix). Ditto how disparate religions like Zen Buddhism or Sunni Islam (or every single other existing religion) come to mix together. It's just assumed that's what happens because it's so far in the future. What's important is what these far future faiths, at least the ones that aren't throwaway references, do afterwards.
- throw4847285 3y agoI guess rather than say religion is window dressing, I'd say Herbert wasn't particularly interested in coming up with a theology or rituals or anything like that. He's interested in religions as a medium for power. Which, to be frank, is how a lot of powerful people throughout history have treated religion. It's just that, when you don't have a sense of how everyday people relate to those kinds of structures, it feels a little fake to me.
- empath-nirvana 3y agoI think he was just riffing on the general idea of religious syncretism -- all religions are syncretic to an extent, some more obviously than others.
- bigger_cheese 3y ago>Did Herbert have a plan for this combo, or was he just making up some future backstory? It has been a very long time since I read all the novels so I can't recall all the details. It is a major plot point in book 5 "Heretics of Dune" zensunni leads to the alliance between the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxian's. The Tleilaxu follow a strict interpretation of the religion in secret and during a meeting between the faction leaders one of the reverend mothers is able to deduce this from their speech patterns and manipulate them into an alliance which has some ramifications. Considering the Tleilaxu aren't introduced until book 2 (I think) I assume it was planned out ahead of time by Herbert.
- mercutio2 3y agoThe Tleilaxu are the only ones who make gholas until Heretics or Chapterhouse, and there is definitely a prominent ghola in book one. We don’t see face dancers or high level negotiation with the Tleilaxu in book 1, that I agree with.
- Jtsummers 3y agoSecond book, there are no gholas in the first book. They're introduced as a concept (and with a character) in Dune Messiah.
- mercutio2 3y agoWow! I can’t believe I misremembered that so confidently. You’re right. So, my whole comment was wrong; no Tleilaxu until Dune Messiah.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Demf 3y agoThey are very much Muslim if they believe in God. That's the actual meaning of the word.