4 ms·
The Russian element is interesting, as it stood out to be on my last rewatch of the 2021 film that the main villain (Stellan Skarsgård) is named "Vladimir Harko
by babyshake 3y ago
The Russian element is interesting, as it stood out to be on my last rewatch of the 2021 film that the main villain (Stellan Skarsgård) is named "Vladimir Harkonnen".
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y agoAnd the Padishah Emperor is called Shaddam IV. Dune the novel, is where I learned the word "jihad" long before it was commonly known. It wasn't used in the film much, since as noted, the world has moved on.
- realfeel78 3y agoThe world has moved on from Jihad? What world are you living in?
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y agoThe _word_ can't be used casually like that any more. The world has moved on from using the word casually as exotic unfamiliar flavour, without inviting unwelcome ignorant reflexive antagonism. For an example of that, I refer you to your own comment.
- samatman 3y agoThe Fremen jihad isn't exotic unfamiliar flavor. It's jihad.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y agoWhoosh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinctio...
- samatman 3y agoAre you a professional doofus, or is it more of a thing you do online for fun.
- kybernetikos 3y agoI assumed he was talking about the Butlerian Jihad, which is an idea that feels particularly fresh and relevant today. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind"
- omnibrain 3y agoI would not say that Jihad was used casually in Dune. But when you read only the first part it looks like the hero is promoting Jihad as something good. When the truth, considering all parts of this sentence, is way more complex if you read on and even reread it. I think the studio (execs) just were afraid of having a blockbuster with a hero that promotes Jihad.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago> I think the studio (execs) just were afraid of having a blockbuster with a hero that promotes Jihad. Agreed, they will use an different equivalent term such as "holy war" for the reasons given above. The meaning of that fictional cataclysm is not casual, but the word choice in Dune the 1965 novel, using an unfamiliar middle-eastern term for it, I think was. These are separate things, and I refer you again to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinctio...
- dragonwriter 3y ago> I think the studio (execs) just were afraid of having a blockbuster with a hero that promotes Jihad. Dune has a hero? Paul is a hero?
- resolutebat 3y agoYes? In the first book, the Harkonnens and the Empire are cartoon character evil and Paul and the Atreides are cartoon character good guys. Things only get more complicated later in the story.
- int_19h 3y agoPaul is already very uncomfortable with the role he has to play in the first book - first the whole part where he and his mother (ab)use a religious prophecy deliberately planted in the Fremen culture for their own needs, and then the part where he turns said culture into fanatical warriors. He already dreams of what is about to come in the next book.
- dragonwriter 3y agoNeither of the two uses in Dune (the Butlerian Jihad and Muad'Dib's Jihad) were "casual", they were quite deliberate and significant choices.
- bertil 3y agoThe Emperor is very obviously coded as the Shah of Iran. I’m not sure how much Herbert differentiated Persian from Arabic culture —I don’t think he would conflate the two— but at the time of the Shah was seen as the most decadent ruler, independently of religion: in 1971, six years after the first book came out, he threw the biggest party ever (literally). I don’t know if Herbert approved of Salvator Dali as the Emperor in Jodorowsky’s version but that makes more sense to code him as excessive and dangerous because unpredictable (something Christopher Walken will do amazingly well; Jeff Goldblum could have been great too) than conflating him with Muslim references. The references are beyond specific houses: Jihad is also used for the "Butlerian Jihad" which is started by the viceroy of the League of Noble, and a Harkonen ally, not something coded with the Freemen, who seemingly don’t know about it, or the Emperor who only takes over much later and at Harkonens’ expenses.
- empath-nirvana 3y agoIt's actually not. The word is Persian, but it's (again) from Sabres of Paradise. The muslim subjects of Russia called the Czar the "Padishah".
- philwelch 3y ago“Padishah” was also one of the titles of the Ottoman and Mughal rulers; it seems to be roughly synonymous to “emperor”.
- EdwardDiego 3y agoI like that he's the Padishah, an Iranian word. Fun fact - a rock band from NZ named themselves "Shihad" after a member had read Dune and got the word jihad wrong. When they tried to break into the US market, they renamed themselves "Pacifier" because, well, you know, Shihad/jihad wasn't a great connotation post 9/11. And the name was appropriate because their music as Pacifier rather sucked.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> I like that he's the Padishah, an Iranian word. It is a Persian word, but Herbert's use of it for the the Corrino emperor probably comes from its use in the Ottoman Empire.
- kragen 3y agomore likely in the russian empire, from lesley blanch's 'sabres of paradise'
- Apocryphon 3y agoHarkonnen is actually a real-world Finnish surname.
- resolutebat 3y agoHärkönen, yes. "Harkonnen", no.
- euroderf 3y agoSure looks like one tho. "-(vowel)nnen" is not as frequent as "-(vowel)nen" but it exists.