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>> It's a nice idea, but it's hard to do. One person is using VIM, another is using emacs, another is using QTCreator, another primarily edits in VSCode.. Tryin

>> It's a nice idea, but it's hard to do. One person is using VIM, another is using emacs, another is using QTCreator, another primarily edits in VSCode.. Trying to get everyone on the same page about all this is very, very hard. This is what's wrong with our industry, and it's no longer an acceptable answer. We're supposed to be fucking professional, and if a job needs to build a tool chain from the IDE up we need to learn to use it and live with it. Built on my machine, with my IDE, the way I like it and it works is not software. It's arts and fucking crafts.

cratermoon 3y ago
If you're saying everyone should agree on the same IDE and personal development toolset, I disagree, sort of. The GP was suggesting the effort to add CI, linters, fuzzing, auto-formatting, etc was too hard. If that can be abandoned entirely, perhaps the legacy codebase isn't providing enough value, and the effort to maintain it would be better spent replacing it. But the implication is that the value outweighs the costs. Put all the linters, fuzzing, and format checking in an automated build toolchain. Allow individuals to work how they want, except they can't break the build. Usually this will reign in the edge cases using inadequate tools. The "built on my machine, with my IDE, the way I like it and it works" is no longer the arbiter of correct, but neither does the organization have to deal with the endless yak shaving over brace style and tool choice.
- eropple 3y ago
  > neither does the organization have to deal with the endless yak shaving over brace style and tool choice I hear you, but an organization that fears this, instead of Just Pick Something And Deal With It, is an organization that probably doesn't have the right people in it to succeed at any task more arduous than that.
  - cratermoon 3y ago
    Conversely, and organization that imposes arbitrary choices and isn't capable of allowing people do use the tools they know best probably doesn't attract the best people. There are many different kinds of hammers, and making everyone who uses hammers use the same kind is, to say the least, counter productive.
    - eropple 3y ago
      I get where you're coming from, but frankly: nah. If you are so in-the-rut that you can't switch, say, text editors or IDEs and are compelled to have an Incredibly Normal Day about it, you're probably not actually possessed of the plasticity to be somebody I want to work with. I use vim, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and VSCode at least once every two weeks apiece, and it's no skin off my back to switch. Do thou likewise.
      - cratermoon 3y ago
        I absolutely agree with this. The plasticity is valuable, but everyone has a productivity sweet spot, and developers tend to go where they feel most productive and rewarded for that productivity.
    - ralphist 3y ago
      I don't imagine the best people crying at being forced to use VSCode instead of CLion.
otabdeveloper4 3y ago
> every single carpenter in the world should use the exact same make and model of saw, for, uh, professionalism reasons
- noitpmeder 3y ago
  One person's saw literally triple checks the measurements before cutting, minimizes wastage, runs 3x faster, and is built by a company specializing in making saws. The other saw was hand forged in a basement by the user, breaks every other day, and has a totally different blade width, and can only be used by the owner.
- zer00eyz 3y ago
  Picture the crew that shows up to stick frame your house. First guy: hand saw and impact driver... cut and screw Second guy: Power Saw, and hammer. Cut and nail. Third guy: Safety glasses and a Nail gun. Forth guy shows up: compressor, asks where the power is (none) and if he can use some tools. It would not work. You dont build a CNC production line for parts with every CNC being unique. We dont let devs pick what their production server OS is, we dont let them choose random languages. Tooling matters.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- danlugo92 3y ago
  Actually yes they should
saagarjha 3y ago
Software is arts and crafts :)
- zer00eyz 3y ago
  It should be less popsicle sticks and paste and more "Arts and Crafts Movement". For those that dont know, Arts and Crafts movement in the states is known for some pretty interesting pottery that was produced at scale. https://excellentjourney.net/2015/03/04/art-fear-the-ceramics-class-and-quantity-before-quality/ https://excellentjourney.net/2015/03/04/art-fear-the-ceramic...

cratermoon 3y ago

If you're saying everyone should agree on the same IDE and personal development toolset, I disagree, sort of. The GP was suggesting the effort to add CI, linters, fuzzing, auto-formatting, etc was too hard. If that can be abandoned entirely, perhaps the legacy codebase isn't providing enough value, and the effort to maintain it would be better spent replacing it. But the implication is that the value outweighs the costs. Put all the linters, fuzzing, and format checking in an automated build toolchain. Allow individuals to work how they want, except they can't break the build. Usually this will reign in the edge cases using inadequate tools. The "built on my machine, with my IDE, the way I like it and it works" is no longer the arbiter of correct, but neither does the organization have to deal with the endless yak shaving over brace style and tool choice.

eropple 3y ago
> neither does the organization have to deal with the endless yak shaving over brace style and tool choice I hear you, but an organization that fears this, instead of Just Pick Something And Deal With It, is an organization that probably doesn't have the right people in it to succeed at any task more arduous than that.
- cratermoon 3y ago
  Conversely, and organization that imposes arbitrary choices and isn't capable of allowing people do use the tools they know best probably doesn't attract the best people. There are many different kinds of hammers, and making everyone who uses hammers use the same kind is, to say the least, counter productive.
  - eropple 3y ago
    I get where you're coming from, but frankly: nah. If you are so in-the-rut that you can't switch, say, text editors or IDEs and are compelled to have an Incredibly Normal Day about it, you're probably not actually possessed of the plasticity to be somebody I want to work with. I use vim, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and VSCode at least once every two weeks apiece, and it's no skin off my back to switch. Do thou likewise.
    - cratermoon 3y ago
      I absolutely agree with this. The plasticity is valuable, but everyone has a productivity sweet spot, and developers tend to go where they feel most productive and rewarded for that productivity.
  - ralphist 3y ago
    I don't imagine the best people crying at being forced to use VSCode instead of CLion.

otabdeveloper4 3y ago

> every single carpenter in the world should use the exact same make and model of saw, for, uh, professionalism reasons

noitpmeder 3y ago
One person's saw literally triple checks the measurements before cutting, minimizes wastage, runs 3x faster, and is built by a company specializing in making saws. The other saw was hand forged in a basement by the user, breaks every other day, and has a totally different blade width, and can only be used by the owner.
zer00eyz 3y ago
Picture the crew that shows up to stick frame your house. First guy: hand saw and impact driver... cut and screw Second guy: Power Saw, and hammer. Cut and nail. Third guy: Safety glasses and a Nail gun. Forth guy shows up: compressor, asks where the power is (none) and if he can use some tools. It would not work. You dont build a CNC production line for parts with every CNC being unique. We dont let devs pick what their production server OS is, we dont let them choose random languages. Tooling matters.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
danlugo92 3y ago
Actually yes they should

saagarjha 3y ago

Software is arts and crafts :)

zer00eyz 3y ago
It should be less popsicle sticks and paste and more "Arts and Crafts Movement". For those that dont know, Arts and Crafts movement in the states is known for some pretty interesting pottery that was produced at scale. https://excellentjourney.net/2015/03/04/art-fear-the-ceramics-class-and-quantity-before-quality/ https://excellentjourney.net/2015/03/04/art-fear-the-ceramic...