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Yes. I switched from Python to C++ because Cython, Numba, etc. just weren't cutting it for my CPU-intensive research needs (program synthesis), and I've never

Yes. I switched from Python to C++ because Cython, Numba, etc. just weren't cutting it for my CPU-intensive research needs (program synthesis), and I've never looked back.

sk11001 3y ago
My question isn't whether it's a good fit for a specific project, I'm more interested in whether it's a good career choice e.g. can you get a job using C++ without C++ experience; how realistic is it to ramp up on it quickly; whether you're likely to end up with some gnarly legacy codebase as described in the OP; is it worth pursuing this direction at all.
- hilux 3y ago
  Did you see yesterday's article about the White House Office of the National Cyber Director (ONCD) advising developers to dump C, C++, and other languages with memory-safety issues?
  - sk11001 3y ago
    Yes, and at the same time I’m seeing ads for jobs that pay more than double what I make that require C++.
  - mkipper 3y ago
    I still think knowing C++ is pretty valuable to someone's career (at least over the next 10 - 15 years) if they're looking to work in fields that traditionally use C++ but might be transitioning away from it. The obvious comparison is Rust. There are way more C++ jobs out there than Rust jobs. And even if I'm hiring for a team developing something in Rust, I'd generally prefer candidates with similar C++ experience and a basic understanding of Rust over candidates with a strong knowledge of Rust and no domain experience. Modern C++ and Rust aren't _that_ dissimilar, and a lot of ideas and techniques carry over from C++ to Rust. Even if the DoD recommends that contractors stop using C++ and tech / finance are moving away from it, I'd say we're still years away from the point where Rust catches up to C++ in terms of job opportunities. If your main goal is employment in a certain industry, you'll probably have an easier time getting your foot in the door with C++ than Rust. Both paths are viable but the Rust path would be much harder IMO.
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    We’re still in for another 20 years of hardcore veteran Cxx programmers insisting that either the memory safety issue is overblown or just a theoretical issue if you are experienced enough/use a new enough edition of the language.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      The C++ committee is looking hard at how to make C++ memory safe. If you use modern C++ you are already reasonably memory safe - the trick is how do we force developers to not access raw memory (no new/malloc, use vector not arrays...). There are some things that seem like they will come soon. Of course if you really need that non-memory safe stuff - which all your existing code does - then you can't take advantage of it. However you can migrate your C++ to modern C++ and add those features to your code. This is probably easier than migrating to something like Rust (Rust cannot work with C++ unless you stick with the C subset from what I can tell) since you can work in small chunks at a time in at least some situations.
- TillE 3y ago
  C++ is really a language that you want to specialize in and cultivate years of deep expertise with, rather than having it as one tool in your belt like you can with other languages. That's certainly a choice you can make, and modern C++ is generally a pretty good experience to work with. I would hope that there's not a ton of active C++ projects which are still mostly using the pre-2011 standard, but who knows.
  - sgerenser 3y ago
    This exactly. It’s a blessing and a curse, because I’d love to move to a “better” language like Rust or even Zig. But with 20+ years of C++ experience I feel like I’d be throwing away too much to avoid C++ completely. Also agreed that modern C++ is pretty decent. Lamenting that I’m back in a codebase that started before C++11 vs my previous job that was greenfield C++14/17.
- stagger87 3y ago
  I would be very surprised if most people actually choose to develop in C++. It's a very good language choice for many domains, and I suspect interest and expertise in those domains drives people to C++ more than a desire to program in C++.
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  Modern C++ is the language of choice for high-performance, high-scale data-intensive applications and will remain so for the foreseeable future. This is a class of application for which it is uniquely suited (C and Rust both have significant limitations in this domain). There are other domains like gaming that are also heavily into C++. Avoiding legacy C++ codebases is more about choosing where you work carefully. It goes without saying that if you don't like the kinds of applications where C++ excels then it may not be a good career choice because it is not a general purpose language in practice.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    > Modern C++ is the language of choice for high-performance, high-scale data-intensive applications > C and Rust both have significant limitations in this domain Rust? Please provide concrete examples. I don't believe it.
- patrick451 3y ago
  IME, c++ was easier to ramp up on than typescript. C++ still a lingua franca in many domains, e.g., robotics, games, finance.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Finance? No, most of it was rewritten in the 2000s to Java or DotNet. Sure, a bunch of HNers will reply here that they work on high frequency market making systems that use C++, but they are an extreme minority in the industry at this point.

Yes. I switched from Python to C++ because Cython, Numba, etc. just weren't cutting it for my CPU-intensive research needs (program synthesis), and I've never looked back.

sk11001 3y ago

My question isn't whether it's a good fit for a specific project, I'm more interested in whether it's a good career choice e.g. can you get a job using C++ without C++ experience; how realistic is it to ramp up on it quickly; whether you're likely to end up with some gnarly legacy codebase as described in the OP; is it worth pursuing this direction at all.

hilux 3y ago
Did you see yesterday's article about the White House Office of the National Cyber Director (ONCD) advising developers to dump C, C++, and other languages with memory-safety issues?
- sk11001 3y ago
  Yes, and at the same time I’m seeing ads for jobs that pay more than double what I make that require C++.
- mkipper 3y ago
  I still think knowing C++ is pretty valuable to someone's career (at least over the next 10 - 15 years) if they're looking to work in fields that traditionally use C++ but might be transitioning away from it. The obvious comparison is Rust. There are way more C++ jobs out there than Rust jobs. And even if I'm hiring for a team developing something in Rust, I'd generally prefer candidates with similar C++ experience and a basic understanding of Rust over candidates with a strong knowledge of Rust and no domain experience. Modern C++ and Rust aren't _that_ dissimilar, and a lot of ideas and techniques carry over from C++ to Rust. Even if the DoD recommends that contractors stop using C++ and tech / finance are moving away from it, I'd say we're still years away from the point where Rust catches up to C++ in terms of job opportunities. If your main goal is employment in a certain industry, you'll probably have an easier time getting your foot in the door with C++ than Rust. Both paths are viable but the Rust path would be much harder IMO.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  We’re still in for another 20 years of hardcore veteran Cxx programmers insisting that either the memory safety issue is overblown or just a theoretical issue if you are experienced enough/use a new enough edition of the language.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    The C++ committee is looking hard at how to make C++ memory safe. If you use modern C++ you are already reasonably memory safe - the trick is how do we force developers to not access raw memory (no new/malloc, use vector not arrays...). There are some things that seem like they will come soon. Of course if you really need that non-memory safe stuff - which all your existing code does - then you can't take advantage of it. However you can migrate your C++ to modern C++ and add those features to your code. This is probably easier than migrating to something like Rust (Rust cannot work with C++ unless you stick with the C subset from what I can tell) since you can work in small chunks at a time in at least some situations.
TillE 3y ago
C++ is really a language that you want to specialize in and cultivate years of deep expertise with, rather than having it as one tool in your belt like you can with other languages. That's certainly a choice you can make, and modern C++ is generally a pretty good experience to work with. I would hope that there's not a ton of active C++ projects which are still mostly using the pre-2011 standard, but who knows.
- sgerenser 3y ago
  This exactly. It’s a blessing and a curse, because I’d love to move to a “better” language like Rust or even Zig. But with 20+ years of C++ experience I feel like I’d be throwing away too much to avoid C++ completely. Also agreed that modern C++ is pretty decent. Lamenting that I’m back in a codebase that started before C++11 vs my previous job that was greenfield C++14/17.
stagger87 3y ago
I would be very surprised if most people actually choose to develop in C++. It's a very good language choice for many domains, and I suspect interest and expertise in those domains drives people to C++ more than a desire to program in C++.
jandrewrogers 3y ago
Modern C++ is the language of choice for high-performance, high-scale data-intensive applications and will remain so for the foreseeable future. This is a class of application for which it is uniquely suited (C and Rust both have significant limitations in this domain). There are other domains like gaming that are also heavily into C++. Avoiding legacy C++ codebases is more about choosing where you work carefully. It goes without saying that if you don't like the kinds of applications where C++ excels then it may not be a good career choice because it is not a general purpose language in practice.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  > Modern C++ is the language of choice for high-performance, high-scale data-intensive applications > C and Rust both have significant limitations in this domain Rust? Please provide concrete examples. I don't believe it.
patrick451 3y ago
IME, c++ was easier to ramp up on than typescript. C++ still a lingua franca in many domains, e.g., robotics, games, finance.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Finance? No, most of it was rewritten in the 2000s to Java or DotNet. Sure, a bunch of HNers will reply here that they work on high frequency market making systems that use C++, but they are an extreme minority in the industry at this point.