5 ms·

NYC has got to find someway to force the poor and middle class from taking up space on city roads that the rich want to use to get places quicker. This is prob

by ejb999 3y ago

NYC has got to find someway to force the poor and middle class from taking up space on city roads that the rich want to use to get places quicker. This is probably the most regressive form of taxation there is.

xyzelement 3y ago
It's actually just a way to fleece people. According to their projections, this will reduce traffic inbound by like 3%. So it's not really gonna reduce cars, just take money out of people's pockets.
- njarboe 3y ago
  Once the toll system is in place the price can be increased until the traffic is reduced to the desired amount. Standard practice.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    It seems mildly incredible to me that a plan which was passed under the guise of reducing traffic wouldn't claim an eventual decrease of more than 3% if they were expecting to get there.
  - dagw 3y ago
    Once the toll system is in place, the city will realise that reduced traffic means reduced toll income and the exercise becomes to find the highest price people will pay without significantly reducing traffic. Standard practice.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Once the toll system is in place, the city will realise that reduced traffic means reduced toll income and the exercise becomes to find the highest price people will pay without significantly reducing traffic Why do you presume New York can't do what every other jurisdiction that has deployed congestion pricing has?
- rwl4 3y ago
  Not 3%. The estimate is 17%. https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/transit/2023/11/30/congestion-pricing-toll-plan-unveiled https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/transit/2023/11/30/congestion-...
  - PM_me_your_math 3y ago
    [dead]
sealeck 3y ago
This is not what happens. Poor people in NYC tend not to own cars and instead use public transport, walk or cycle. Even if your case is true this is good because: 1. fewer people drive (which is good because less pollution, reduced congestion, fewer pedestrian casualties) 2. as fewer people drive people start to question why there are so many empty streets (and push for that space to be given over to other people) 3. because fewer people drive they are not going to vote for pro-driver policies, like dedicating an insane amount of the city to roads and instead will support things like more walkable neighbourhoods and more cycle paths/lanes. Bikes are a mathematically better way to travel in cities because you can easily get 5-10 times higher capacity!
- ejb999 3y ago
  The best way to get people to use public transport, is to improve public transport - cleaning it up, getting rid of the stabbings, assaults, murders, homeless people sleeping in the subway would be a good start, not to mention the stink of urine everyplace you go. This plan just forces the people to whom $15/day is a burden to use the available crappy public transport options and allowing the wealthy to continue to do what they have always done, unaffected by the little people - as usual. The same thinking that is used to propose that we should ban gas stoves, but not private jets or 500' yachts.
  - sealeck 3y ago
    We can spend those $15 to improve public transport? > The same thinking that is used to propose that we should ban gas stoves, but not private jets or 500' yachts. I think most people who support congestion charging also support higher taxes on private jets and private yachts. Like this is the same principle...
    - lotsoweiners 3y ago
      > We can spend those $15 to improve public transport? Good luck with that… The NYC government will want those $15 fees to keep flowing in and better public transit is a threat to that. Same reason your police department wants you to keep speeding so that they don’t lose a lucrative revenue stream.
PM_me_your_math 3y ago
[dead]
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> poor and middle class "Low-income drivers can register with the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, the body in charge of congestion pricing, for a 50 percent discount on all trips into the Central Business District following the first 10 trips in a month. This group of drivers includes people with household incomes under $50,000 who drive to work in the district." Would note that the New Yorkers I know who own a car are either stupendously rich or live in the outer boroughs, rarely bringing them into the city. (Why would you.) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/congestion-pricing-nyc-questions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/congestion-prici...

by ejb999 3y ago

xyzelement 3y ago

It's actually just a way to fleece people. According to their projections, this will reduce traffic inbound by like 3%. So it's not really gonna reduce cars, just take money out of people's pockets.

njarboe 3y ago
Once the toll system is in place the price can be increased until the traffic is reduced to the desired amount. Standard practice.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  It seems mildly incredible to me that a plan which was passed under the guise of reducing traffic wouldn't claim an eventual decrease of more than 3% if they were expecting to get there.
- dagw 3y ago
  Once the toll system is in place, the city will realise that reduced traffic means reduced toll income and the exercise becomes to find the highest price people will pay without significantly reducing traffic. Standard practice.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Once the toll system is in place, the city will realise that reduced traffic means reduced toll income and the exercise becomes to find the highest price people will pay without significantly reducing traffic Why do you presume New York can't do what every other jurisdiction that has deployed congestion pricing has?
rwl4 3y ago
Not 3%. The estimate is 17%. https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/transit/2023/11/30/congestion-pricing-toll-plan-unveiled https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/transit/2023/11/30/congestion-...
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago
  [dead]

sealeck 3y ago

This is not what happens. Poor people in NYC tend not to own cars and instead use public transport, walk or cycle. Even if your case is true this is good because: 1. fewer people drive (which is good because less pollution, reduced congestion, fewer pedestrian casualties) 2. as fewer people drive people start to question why there are so many empty streets (and push for that space to be given over to other people) 3. because fewer people drive they are not going to vote for pro-driver policies, like dedicating an insane amount of the city to roads and instead will support things like more walkable neighbourhoods and more cycle paths/lanes. Bikes are a mathematically better way to travel in cities because you can easily get 5-10 times higher capacity!

ejb999 3y ago
The best way to get people to use public transport, is to improve public transport - cleaning it up, getting rid of the stabbings, assaults, murders, homeless people sleeping in the subway would be a good start, not to mention the stink of urine everyplace you go. This plan just forces the people to whom $15/day is a burden to use the available crappy public transport options and allowing the wealthy to continue to do what they have always done, unaffected by the little people - as usual. The same thinking that is used to propose that we should ban gas stoves, but not private jets or 500' yachts.
- sealeck 3y ago
  We can spend those $15 to improve public transport? > The same thinking that is used to propose that we should ban gas stoves, but not private jets or 500' yachts. I think most people who support congestion charging also support higher taxes on private jets and private yachts. Like this is the same principle...
  - lotsoweiners 3y ago
    > We can spend those $15 to improve public transport? Good luck with that… The NYC government will want those $15 fees to keep flowing in and better public transit is a threat to that. Same reason your police department wants you to keep speeding so that they don’t lose a lucrative revenue stream.

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

[dead]

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> poor and middle class "Low-income drivers can register with the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, the body in charge of congestion pricing, for a 50 percent discount on all trips into the Central Business District following the first 10 trips in a month. This group of drivers includes people with household incomes under $50,000 who drive to work in the district." Would note that the New Yorkers I know who own a car are either stupendously rich or live in the outer boroughs, rarely bringing them into the city. (Why would you.) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/congestion-pricing-nyc-questions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/congestion-prici...