4 ms·

For anyone new to Elm, remember that as of version 0.19, unless your project is one of the Elm core team's pet projects, you'll have a severely restricted featu

For anyone new to Elm, remember that as of version 0.19, unless your project is one of the Elm core team's pet projects, you'll have a severely restricted feature set available. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821447, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17842400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17842400, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510267 for details.

hombre_fatal 3y ago
Jeez, at some point you folks who don’t like Elm’s decisions have to leave the theater so the rest of us can enjoy the show. If you think a cult of personality is bad, you aren’t appreciating how much worse is, to the rest of us, the cult of anti-cheerleaders on every post that mentions Elm. For years now any time someone wants to read about Elm, they have to hear from the same few HNers who don’t even use it yet refuse to let it go. It’s like every time Dune plays in the movie theater, the same crowd comes in to explain how shit it is, how different it is from the book, in fact check out this ancient blog post about how bad it is, and there’s no way yall in the audience will enjoy it so don’t even try! The director sucks too, just look what he did! He fkin did that! It’s actually impossible to enjoy the movie once you know all the facts. And the guy who made the movie didn’t listen to my meticulous feedback and it hurt me cuz boy do I have opinions about how a Dune movie should be made, believe you me. Meanwhile we just want to watch the dang movie.
- matsemann 3y ago
  I'm quite curious what Elm triggers so in people, that they years later actively hunts down discussions about it to interject their negativity.
  - esmevane 3y ago
    I think maybe you ought to think about inverting your stance on this, because it's not necessarily virtuous to imagine that everyone repeating the same warning, over and over again, is due to some mysterious, inexplicable negativity. And it's not great to imagine that they don't know what they're talking about, or that they're just trying to scare people off with senseless FUD. Or that they didn't actually run into the problems they say they did. Or that they don't know the root cause. Maybe a better question to be curious about is this: What can Elm do about the (self-evident in these comments, IMO) fact that a bunch of devs who really like it, feel like it's a bad choice? And, what SHOULD Elm do about that? If a bunch of people think it's a tool foreboding enough to warn others off of it, and in the same thread some of those same people are saying they really liked that tool and wish they didn't have to do that, what benefit are you really getting from just dismissing their feedback? Outspoken feedback is rare, just calling it negativity and paying it no mind rhymes a lot with the way Elm, writ large, has behaved. It's not indicative of a tool or ecosystem that wants to foster growth or continue development. That's part of the problem.
    - matsemann 3y ago
      I disagree. I don't care what elm maintainers should or shouldn't do. It's not my problem, so that's not a question I want to ask. I'm curious about why the same few, a vocal minority, spams every thread about elm with the same blog post. If you think we're dismissive, it's more because we don't want the discussion to be derailed for the umpteenth time.
      - bigDinosaur 3y ago
        People who make commercial decisions based on the support and development a language receives do indeed care. If you are making decisions with commercial or practical relevance you should care and not caring is negligence if you decide to use the product. Many people got burnt by the abandonment of Elm development (and yes, it has essentially been abandoned despite what the Elm community will say).
    - SantalBlush 3y ago
      I think it's a bit disingenuous to pretend the goal of many of these critics is to improve Elm. They are clearly through with the language--as shown in their comments--and that is fine. But they're acting like they got dumped five years ago and still aren't over it.
      - esmevane 3y ago
        Why would they not be over it, then? It's clearly made an impression.
  - paradox460 3y ago
    They damaged the illusion of the "B" in "BDFL" with their changes in 19. Open-Source programmers like to believe that their toolchains and whatnot are egalitarian, and treat everyone as equals. Many accept the idea that the STDlib will be "more special," because its included in every copy of the language. This pill is made easy to swallow by the idea that your code, for your tool or library or whatever else, can be just as powerful as a built-in bit of code. Elm's maintaners decided to break this. They created what amounts to a caste system for code. If your code was blessed, then it got all sorts of extra abilities not granted to un-blessed code. And the sole authority on blessing was the cadre of developers. Now, as to why they did this is a different discussion. There are good and bad arguments on both side. But as to why it comes up all the time? Ego
    - matsemann 3y ago
      That might be, but doesn't answer the question. There's plenty of tech I don't enjoy, still I don't interject myself into every discussion about those to bring it up. It's like this meme. https://imgur.com/a/mjsMOGJ https://imgur.com/a/mjsMOGJ why do so many want to be the person to the left when it comes to elm? And so many years later?
- ddellacosta 3y ago
  This and the responses that are piling on with the same sentiment are offbase. I am not seeking out opportunities to badmouth Elm. But as I am someone who is interested in FP and frontend tech in general, when I see an Elm story on the frontpage I click on it to see what folks are saying. And when I see exclusively glowing and positive statements (which was the case when I first posted) then I feel like I have an obligation to point out that there are some big issues with how Elm is maintained, because this is the sort of thing that _I_ would want to know before I spent a bunch of time digging into it. If you want to watch the dang movie go ahead. But anyone asserting that those of us posting negative things about Elm are acting cult-like (seriously?) is being disingenuous. Considering the audience, there are good reasons to highlight the--IMHO major--problems with how the Elm project is run, and not mentioning them is irresponsible.
marc136 3y ago
For anyone new to Elm, please know that you have a stable language with no major changes since 2018 and no official release since end of 2019, see https://iselmdead.info https://iselmdead.info and decide if that is a bad or a good thing for you. And if you are thinking of starting now, you should not focus on what undocumented feature (or hack) was taken away in 2018 that allowed injecting arbitrary JavaScript code that easily broke all guarantees of the language https://discourse.elm-lang.org/t/native-code-in-0-19/826 https://discourse.elm-lang.org/t/native-code-in-0-19/826 but rather if Elm fits your current (and maybe future) needs. If it does not, keep looking for alternatives.
- tasuki 3y ago
  The "no updates for past five years" is my favourite feature of Elm. I have some five or so projects written in Elm and enjoy every time I don't have to upgrade them because no new version was released!
  - marc136 3y ago
    That's high on my list, too. The only fear I have is that I won't be able to install packages that no longer exist when I switching machines. But by running ELM_HOME="$PWD/deps" elm make ... I can get those downloaded into the directories and add them to the VCS.

hombre_fatal 3y ago

Jeez, at some point you folks who don’t like Elm’s decisions have to leave the theater so the rest of us can enjoy the show. If you think a cult of personality is bad, you aren’t appreciating how much worse is, to the rest of us, the cult of anti-cheerleaders on every post that mentions Elm. For years now any time someone wants to read about Elm, they have to hear from the same few HNers who don’t even use it yet refuse to let it go. It’s like every time Dune plays in the movie theater, the same crowd comes in to explain how shit it is, how different it is from the book, in fact check out this ancient blog post about how bad it is, and there’s no way yall in the audience will enjoy it so don’t even try! The director sucks too, just look what he did! He fkin did that! It’s actually impossible to enjoy the movie once you know all the facts. And the guy who made the movie didn’t listen to my meticulous feedback and it hurt me cuz boy do I have opinions about how a Dune movie should be made, believe you me. Meanwhile we just want to watch the dang movie.

matsemann 3y ago
I'm quite curious what Elm triggers so in people, that they years later actively hunts down discussions about it to interject their negativity.
- esmevane 3y ago
  I think maybe you ought to think about inverting your stance on this, because it's not necessarily virtuous to imagine that everyone repeating the same warning, over and over again, is due to some mysterious, inexplicable negativity. And it's not great to imagine that they don't know what they're talking about, or that they're just trying to scare people off with senseless FUD. Or that they didn't actually run into the problems they say they did. Or that they don't know the root cause. Maybe a better question to be curious about is this: What can Elm do about the (self-evident in these comments, IMO) fact that a bunch of devs who really like it, feel like it's a bad choice? And, what SHOULD Elm do about that? If a bunch of people think it's a tool foreboding enough to warn others off of it, and in the same thread some of those same people are saying they really liked that tool and wish they didn't have to do that, what benefit are you really getting from just dismissing their feedback? Outspoken feedback is rare, just calling it negativity and paying it no mind rhymes a lot with the way Elm, writ large, has behaved. It's not indicative of a tool or ecosystem that wants to foster growth or continue development. That's part of the problem.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    I disagree. I don't care what elm maintainers should or shouldn't do. It's not my problem, so that's not a question I want to ask. I'm curious about why the same few, a vocal minority, spams every thread about elm with the same blog post. If you think we're dismissive, it's more because we don't want the discussion to be derailed for the umpteenth time.
    - bigDinosaur 3y ago
      People who make commercial decisions based on the support and development a language receives do indeed care. If you are making decisions with commercial or practical relevance you should care and not caring is negligence if you decide to use the product. Many people got burnt by the abandonment of Elm development (and yes, it has essentially been abandoned despite what the Elm community will say).
  - SantalBlush 3y ago
    I think it's a bit disingenuous to pretend the goal of many of these critics is to improve Elm. They are clearly through with the language--as shown in their comments--and that is fine. But they're acting like they got dumped five years ago and still aren't over it.
    - esmevane 3y ago
      Why would they not be over it, then? It's clearly made an impression.
- paradox460 3y ago
  They damaged the illusion of the "B" in "BDFL" with their changes in 19. Open-Source programmers like to believe that their toolchains and whatnot are egalitarian, and treat everyone as equals. Many accept the idea that the STDlib will be "more special," because its included in every copy of the language. This pill is made easy to swallow by the idea that your code, for your tool or library or whatever else, can be just as powerful as a built-in bit of code. Elm's maintaners decided to break this. They created what amounts to a caste system for code. If your code was blessed, then it got all sorts of extra abilities not granted to un-blessed code. And the sole authority on blessing was the cadre of developers. Now, as to why they did this is a different discussion. There are good and bad arguments on both side. But as to why it comes up all the time? Ego
  - matsemann 3y ago
    That might be, but doesn't answer the question. There's plenty of tech I don't enjoy, still I don't interject myself into every discussion about those to bring it up. It's like this meme. https://imgur.com/a/mjsMOGJ https://imgur.com/a/mjsMOGJ why do so many want to be the person to the left when it comes to elm? And so many years later?
ddellacosta 3y ago
This and the responses that are piling on with the same sentiment are offbase. I am not seeking out opportunities to badmouth Elm. But as I am someone who is interested in FP and frontend tech in general, when I see an Elm story on the frontpage I click on it to see what folks are saying. And when I see exclusively glowing and positive statements (which was the case when I first posted) then I feel like I have an obligation to point out that there are some big issues with how Elm is maintained, because this is the sort of thing that _I_ would want to know before I spent a bunch of time digging into it. If you want to watch the dang movie go ahead. But anyone asserting that those of us posting negative things about Elm are acting cult-like (seriously?) is being disingenuous. Considering the audience, there are good reasons to highlight the--IMHO major--problems with how the Elm project is run, and not mentioning them is irresponsible.

marc136 3y ago

For anyone new to Elm, please know that you have a stable language with no major changes since 2018 and no official release since end of 2019, see https://iselmdead.info https://iselmdead.info and decide if that is a bad or a good thing for you. And if you are thinking of starting now, you should not focus on what undocumented feature (or hack) was taken away in 2018 that allowed injecting arbitrary JavaScript code that easily broke all guarantees of the language https://discourse.elm-lang.org/t/native-code-in-0-19/826 https://discourse.elm-lang.org/t/native-code-in-0-19/826 but rather if Elm fits your current (and maybe future) needs. If it does not, keep looking for alternatives.

tasuki 3y ago
The "no updates for past five years" is my favourite feature of Elm. I have some five or so projects written in Elm and enjoy every time I don't have to upgrade them because no new version was released!
- marc136 3y ago
  That's high on my list, too. The only fear I have is that I won't be able to install packages that no longer exist when I switching machines. But by running ELM_HOME="$PWD/deps" elm make ... I can get those downloaded into the directories and add them to the VCS.