3 ms·

Things look pretty dystopian as it stands, and if concentration of wealth continues, we'll speed down that dark road even faster. If not UBI, what other solutio

Things look pretty dystopian as it stands, and if concentration of wealth continues, we'll speed down that dark road even faster. If not UBI, what other solution is there? Especially as automation sweeps through cognitive work?

throwawa14223 3y ago
We need to be radically cutting immigration now along with collapsing birth rates such that worker supply and worker demand reach equilibrium.
- drcongo 3y ago
  Aaaaand there it is.
  - throwawa14223 3y ago
    Is your proposal that the USA needs to import more people we don't have work for so we can put them on UBI?
    - drcongo 3y ago
      I'm not proposing anything. It's just inevitable that when a right wing throwaway account posts about anything, it's just so they can steer around to their favourite topic of The Foreigns.
      - throwawa14223 3y ago
        At some point it has to come down to that. The USA is (mostly) not growing through birth so any proposal to gradually decrease the population has to include immigration. As AI advances I believe having a lower population will be a competitive advantage.
        drcongo 3y ago
        Nothing ever "has to come down to" foreigners unless that's your preassigned agenda that you want to bring everything around to. Pretty much every study ever done has concluded that immigration is a net benefit to a country's GDP and emigration is a net loss. > The USA is (mostly) not growing through birth so any proposal to gradually decrease the population has to include immigration. You're going to need to explain how you've managed to bring The Foreigns into this, you've just glued together two unrelated statements. You say that the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and then talk about population decrease and immigration as though that's related. If the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and people continue to die (which is pretty much a given), then you've got your wish without ever needing your racism. Out of interest, which of the First Nations tribes were you born into?
        throwawa14223 3y ago
        > You're going to need to explain how you've managed to bring The Foreigns into this, you've just glued together two unrelated statements. You say that the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and then talk about population decrease and immigration as though that's related. As far as I can tell, population growth in the USA is from people moving here from other places. Not as a result of growth from people having children.[1] Assuming we live in a world where AI eats jobs, which as far as I can tell is what we are talking about, I would expect population growth, regardless of birth or flowing from another country to stop being beneficial. I agree with you that under current system it is a net benefit. >Out of interest, which of the First Nations tribes were you born into? How is that relevant? [1] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-projections-show-immigration-is-essential-to-the-growth-and-vitality-of-a-more-diverse-us-population/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-projections-sh...
        drcongo 3y ago
        > Assuming we live in a world where AI eats jobs, which as far as I can tell is what we are talking about No, this is a thread about billionaires lobbying against UBI. You brought AI into it so you could have a go about the foreigners. > How is that relevant? It's relevant because you're so anti-immigration that surely you must be native to the land you live on, otherwise you're just another racist pulling the ladder up behind you.
    - spiderfarmer 3y ago
      There are more than enough jobs. If your deepest fear is that people with different cultural backgrounds will replace people like you, you don't want have an actual debate about policy. You just want to remain in your safe space.
      - throwawa14223 3y ago
        You are leaving money on the table if you haven't used your mind reading skills to get the James Randi Educational Foundation million dollar prize. The question was how do we deal with the coming lack of jobs without UBI. The answer is we peacefully reduce our population. This pre-supposes a lack of jobs. If you want to change the conditions of the question and say there will be more than enough jobs then we don't need UBI.
    - dagw 3y ago
      The more likely scenario if the US implements UBI, is they'll probably need to import a lot more people on various work visas (and who won't get UBI) to do all the jobs people on UBI won't do any more.
endominus 3y ago
"We don't have a solution to fix it so let's try the solution that makes it worse" is not a very compelling argument.
- danielbln 3y ago
  That's OP's argument, I don't think UBI is a solution that makes things worse. That said, I'd like to know what the alternative could be, hence my line of questioning.
  - endominus 3y ago
    Have you looked into Georgism?
Gormo 3y ago
What do you see is the fundamental problem with concentration of wealth (by which I assume you mean concentration of relative wealth, which seems to be what most people who discuss this topic are looking at)? I'd agree that if absolute wealth is being concentrated, that could pose a serious problem, because it would ultimately make large swaths of the population dependent for their livelihoods on a small, centralized set of people who determine the disposition of wealth. But I'm not sure how UBI -- a program that would make large swaths of the population dependent for their livelihoods on a small, centralized set of people who determine the disposition of wealth -- is a solution to this problem rather than a de jure entrenchment of it.

throwawa14223 3y ago

We need to be radically cutting immigration now along with collapsing birth rates such that worker supply and worker demand reach equilibrium.

drcongo 3y ago
Aaaaand there it is.
- throwawa14223 3y ago
  Is your proposal that the USA needs to import more people we don't have work for so we can put them on UBI?
  - drcongo 3y ago
    I'm not proposing anything. It's just inevitable that when a right wing throwaway account posts about anything, it's just so they can steer around to their favourite topic of The Foreigns.
    - throwawa14223 3y ago
      At some point it has to come down to that. The USA is (mostly) not growing through birth so any proposal to gradually decrease the population has to include immigration. As AI advances I believe having a lower population will be a competitive advantage.
      - drcongo 3y ago
        Nothing ever "has to come down to" foreigners unless that's your preassigned agenda that you want to bring everything around to. Pretty much every study ever done has concluded that immigration is a net benefit to a country's GDP and emigration is a net loss. > The USA is (mostly) not growing through birth so any proposal to gradually decrease the population has to include immigration. You're going to need to explain how you've managed to bring The Foreigns into this, you've just glued together two unrelated statements. You say that the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and then talk about population decrease and immigration as though that's related. If the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and people continue to die (which is pretty much a given), then you've got your wish without ever needing your racism. Out of interest, which of the First Nations tribes were you born into?
        throwawa14223 3y ago
        > You're going to need to explain how you've managed to bring The Foreigns into this, you've just glued together two unrelated statements. You say that the US population isn't growing through birthrates, and then talk about population decrease and immigration as though that's related. As far as I can tell, population growth in the USA is from people moving here from other places. Not as a result of growth from people having children.[1] Assuming we live in a world where AI eats jobs, which as far as I can tell is what we are talking about, I would expect population growth, regardless of birth or flowing from another country to stop being beneficial. I agree with you that under current system it is a net benefit. >Out of interest, which of the First Nations tribes were you born into? How is that relevant? [1] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-projections-show-immigration-is-essential-to-the-growth-and-vitality-of-a-more-diverse-us-population/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-projections-sh...
        drcongo 3y ago
        > Assuming we live in a world where AI eats jobs, which as far as I can tell is what we are talking about No, this is a thread about billionaires lobbying against UBI. You brought AI into it so you could have a go about the foreigners. > How is that relevant? It's relevant because you're so anti-immigration that surely you must be native to the land you live on, otherwise you're just another racist pulling the ladder up behind you.
  - spiderfarmer 3y ago
    There are more than enough jobs. If your deepest fear is that people with different cultural backgrounds will replace people like you, you don't want have an actual debate about policy. You just want to remain in your safe space.
    - throwawa14223 3y ago
      You are leaving money on the table if you haven't used your mind reading skills to get the James Randi Educational Foundation million dollar prize. The question was how do we deal with the coming lack of jobs without UBI. The answer is we peacefully reduce our population. This pre-supposes a lack of jobs. If you want to change the conditions of the question and say there will be more than enough jobs then we don't need UBI.
  - dagw 3y ago
    The more likely scenario if the US implements UBI, is they'll probably need to import a lot more people on various work visas (and who won't get UBI) to do all the jobs people on UBI won't do any more.

endominus 3y ago

"We don't have a solution to fix it so let's try the solution that makes it worse" is not a very compelling argument.

danielbln 3y ago
That's OP's argument, I don't think UBI is a solution that makes things worse. That said, I'd like to know what the alternative could be, hence my line of questioning.
- endominus 3y ago
  Have you looked into Georgism?

Gormo 3y ago

What do you see is the fundamental problem with concentration of wealth (by which I assume you mean concentration of relative wealth, which seems to be what most people who discuss this topic are looking at)? I'd agree that if absolute wealth is being concentrated, that could pose a serious problem, because it would ultimately make large swaths of the population dependent for their livelihoods on a small, centralized set of people who determine the disposition of wealth. But I'm not sure how UBI -- a program that would make large swaths of the population dependent for their livelihoods on a small, centralized set of people who determine the disposition of wealth -- is a solution to this problem rather than a de jure entrenchment of it.