7 ms·

> KDE should probably invest in better defaults if these need tweaking. We've done that a lot the last couple of years! We've changed many defaults to values t

by sho_hn 3y ago

> KDE should probably invest in better defaults if these need tweaking. We've done that a lot the last couple of years! We've changed many defaults to values that reflect better what the users actually use, based on reviewing what distros do, studies, and opt-in telemetry. A lot of this already happened in the back half of the 5.x era, but 6.0 includes additional changes in this regard. And you're not wrong, it does help a lot.

moffkalast 3y ago
Great, but konsole tabs on the bottom by default? Why?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I only very rarely use konsole tabs at all (I prefer multiple windows), but when I do, I appreciate that they're at the bottom of the screen. That tends to be where my attention is when I'm using konsole.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  I have them on the bottom for 20 years. The first thing I'll change on fresh system. Glad I won't need to do that anymore. I wonder if "new tab" button is always visible now too.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    To each his own I suppose, as long as it's adjustable :) Is it a browser tabs vs. taskbar tabs ideology?
    - kuschku 3y ago
      People like tabs right next to the area they look at most of the time. In browsers, that's always at the top. In terminals, depending on if you're a heavy user (and as result, the prompt is at the bottom) or a light user (and the prompt is at the top), you'll likely prefer tabs to be in the same area, too. I've actually got different settings for taskbar position and terminal tab position between my work ubuntu, personal ubuntu, and personal windows systems.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      For me it's a Windows/Mac thing - if you're a Mac user, you're used to having a menu bar at the top, and you're always up around the top, so top tabs feel right. When I was on Windows, the Start Menu/taskbar was on the bottom, and bottom tabs felt right (as they became available). Let's all agree that side tabs are of the devil.
      - ambichook 3y ago
        my discord addled gen z brain keeps tabs and taskbar to the left, there's always gonna be someone
- jraph 3y ago
  I don't care much either way, why would this matter so much? Also, if this is the only thing that's annoying, KDE won I guess.
- agildehaus 3y ago
  Tabs are on top by for me on 6.0. Seems to be the default, unless my distro (Arch) changed the default.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    I can't say which position is the "right" one, but I also noticed different distros have different defaults on where the tabs are positioned. It's cool that KDE lets you do that, but it's a bit annoying actually as it messes with the consistency of KDE. Sure, users can always change their preference to what suits them best, but it would be nice if out of the box all KDEs behaved and looked the same and leave the personalization to the user after installation.
    - agildehaus 3y ago
      https://github.com/KDE/konsole/blob/61264c1917770102a85123d388528f2bcacfd960/src/settings/konsole.kcfg#L129 https://github.com/KDE/konsole/blob/61264c1917770102a85123d3... It appears the default is Top in Konsole's source.
- alxlaz 3y ago
  This is an excellent illustration of why "better defaults" is a gateway to endless bikeshedding. One person's "better defaults" are another person's "why?" The only "better" defaults are those that match what people already know, not necessarily because they're objectively better but because most people will already know how to use them. You literally can't get a learning curve better than "you already know it". Konsole has had tabs at the bottom for about 25 years now (I don't recall KDE 1.x, but they were definitely there in 2.x). Who do you prioritize in a design? Everyone who already uses KDE, and expects them at the bottom, or a subset of users who might switch to KDE and expect them at the top? More importantly, is the position of tabs -- especially one that you can change! -- like, a real, actual problem?
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have a “here are some of the options we’ve got, pick one, there’s no default!” splash screen on first run.
    - alxlaz 3y ago
      KDE had exactly that back in its 3.x era, actually. It had a first run wizard that allowed you to choose things like whether you open things with a single or a double click, and options were largely organised based on platforms with similar conventions (as in, it had options like "single click selects, double click opens (Windows style)"). It was remarkably friction-free actually, people could just pick the mode that they were already familiar with and that was that. It had all the good parts of "the right default" (i.e. the "right" default was always the one you liked best) and required exactly one click to configure.
    - jorvi 3y ago
      Zorin OS takes this approach (and pretty far). At first boot you get to select Windows, Mac, Unity or Zorin style and it shifts a bunch of things around based on that. It would be nice for KDE to have three presets: Windows, Mac, and Classic (= KDE).
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
- troyvit 3y ago
  I think it took you longer to ask that question than it does to move the tabs to where you want them. Personally I have them on the bottom and like it.
- dietr1ch 3y ago
  I'm guessing because tabs on top push the terminal down, moving all the text and maybe being distracting while reading since we are mostly reading from the top of the terminal buffer.

by sho_hn 3y ago

moffkalast 3y ago

Great, but konsole tabs on the bottom by default? Why?

JohnFen 3y ago
I only very rarely use konsole tabs at all (I prefer multiple windows), but when I do, I appreciate that they're at the bottom of the screen. That tends to be where my attention is when I'm using konsole.
thriftwy 3y ago
I have them on the bottom for 20 years. The first thing I'll change on fresh system. Glad I won't need to do that anymore. I wonder if "new tab" button is always visible now too.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  To each his own I suppose, as long as it's adjustable :) Is it a browser tabs vs. taskbar tabs ideology?
  - kuschku 3y ago
    People like tabs right next to the area they look at most of the time. In browsers, that's always at the top. In terminals, depending on if you're a heavy user (and as result, the prompt is at the bottom) or a light user (and the prompt is at the top), you'll likely prefer tabs to be in the same area, too. I've actually got different settings for taskbar position and terminal tab position between my work ubuntu, personal ubuntu, and personal windows systems.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    For me it's a Windows/Mac thing - if you're a Mac user, you're used to having a menu bar at the top, and you're always up around the top, so top tabs feel right. When I was on Windows, the Start Menu/taskbar was on the bottom, and bottom tabs felt right (as they became available). Let's all agree that side tabs are of the devil.
    - ambichook 3y ago
      my discord addled gen z brain keeps tabs and taskbar to the left, there's always gonna be someone
jraph 3y ago
I don't care much either way, why would this matter so much? Also, if this is the only thing that's annoying, KDE won I guess.
agildehaus 3y ago
Tabs are on top by for me on 6.0. Seems to be the default, unless my distro (Arch) changed the default.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  I can't say which position is the "right" one, but I also noticed different distros have different defaults on where the tabs are positioned. It's cool that KDE lets you do that, but it's a bit annoying actually as it messes with the consistency of KDE. Sure, users can always change their preference to what suits them best, but it would be nice if out of the box all KDEs behaved and looked the same and leave the personalization to the user after installation.
  - agildehaus 3y ago
    https://github.com/KDE/konsole/blob/61264c1917770102a85123d388528f2bcacfd960/src/settings/konsole.kcfg#L129 https://github.com/KDE/konsole/blob/61264c1917770102a85123d3... It appears the default is Top in Konsole's source.
alxlaz 3y ago
This is an excellent illustration of why "better defaults" is a gateway to endless bikeshedding. One person's "better defaults" are another person's "why?" The only "better" defaults are those that match what people already know, not necessarily because they're objectively better but because most people will already know how to use them. You literally can't get a learning curve better than "you already know it". Konsole has had tabs at the bottom for about 25 years now (I don't recall KDE 1.x, but they were definitely there in 2.x). Who do you prioritize in a design? Everyone who already uses KDE, and expects them at the bottom, or a subset of users who might switch to KDE and expect them at the top? More importantly, is the position of tabs -- especially one that you can change! -- like, a real, actual problem?
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have a “here are some of the options we’ve got, pick one, there’s no default!” splash screen on first run.
  - alxlaz 3y ago
    KDE had exactly that back in its 3.x era, actually. It had a first run wizard that allowed you to choose things like whether you open things with a single or a double click, and options were largely organised based on platforms with similar conventions (as in, it had options like "single click selects, double click opens (Windows style)"). It was remarkably friction-free actually, people could just pick the mode that they were already familiar with and that was that. It had all the good parts of "the right default" (i.e. the "right" default was always the one you liked best) and required exactly one click to configure.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    Zorin OS takes this approach (and pretty far). At first boot you get to select Windows, Mac, Unity or Zorin style and it shifts a bunch of things around based on that. It would be nice for KDE to have three presets: Windows, Mac, and Classic (= KDE).
- Dalewyn 3y ago
troyvit 3y ago
I think it took you longer to ask that question than it does to move the tabs to where you want them. Personally I have them on the bottom and like it.
dietr1ch 3y ago
I'm guessing because tabs on top push the terminal down, moving all the text and maybe being distracting while reading since we are mostly reading from the top of the terminal buffer.