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KDE has spoiled me. I installed a Gnome distribution a short while back, but used it for a couple of hours and missed KDE so much that I wiped the hard drive a

KDE has spoiled me. I installed a Gnome distribution a short while back, but used it for a couple of hours and missed KDE so much that I wiped the hard drive and went back to Manjaro and KDE.

tcbawo 3y ago
> wiped the hard drive and went back to Manjaro I think this is the reason Linux hasn't penetrated the desktop more than it has. “Just reinstall” is too often the solution to issues. Starting over will often throw away hours of someone’s time. This can be catastrophic for a non-technical user. I wish the Linux desktop was implemented more like a user extension on top of a rock solid base server layer (eg hypervisor). Maybe such a setup exists, but I’m unaware of it.
- georgyo 3y ago
  It's not "the solution", it is a solution. It is the easiest solution, requires no research or technical ability, and will not have any left over cruft from the hours of customizing. The same goes for windows, I know people who reinstall every 6 months just to keep their system clean and working optimally. > I wish the Linux desktop was implemented more like a user extension on top of a rock solid base server layer. I would argue that the Linux kernel is that server layer, but let's not open that can of worms. Maybe Fedora Silverblue is up your ally. All the apps, including the desktop environment are containers. Or if you really want an actual hypervisor you could try Qubes, but that is not for the faint of heart.
  - qwertox 3y ago
    > I would argue that the Linux kernel is that server layer, but let's not open that can of worms. Yes, the package manager is definitely not a part of the desktop.
  - tcbawo 3y ago
    I was not familiar with Silverblue. It looks very promising. The idea of creating a fundamental, shared base system should make troubleshooting significantly easier — possibly an exponential reduction in the possible installed permutations. Thanks for the suggestion!
- CoolCold 3y ago
  Some say Windows + WSL2 is the most stable ABI/API for the year of Linux on desktop. While its a joke, every joke contains some portion of a joke.
  - cpburns2009 3y ago
    I thought the joke was the reverse? The most stable ABI for Linux is Win32 (via Wine of course).
  - cfiggers 3y ago
    That's what I use. I love it!
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  Switching desktop environments on Linux is absolutely trivial and doesn't require a reinstall though (at least in my experience of switching from GNOME to KDE on Ubuntu, which took a couple of minutes to pull down the KDE packages and then logging out and picking Plasma from a dropdown in the login screen - and if I feel like it I can switch back to GNOME anytime).
  - askonomm 3y ago
    Trivial to who? A seasoned Linux nerd? Maybe. A regular, non-tech person? Nope. And that is why there is no year of the linux desktop. And if you expect a regular, non-tech person to be able to master the terminal and type in commands you're delusional.
    - markles 3y ago
      You can install it through the Software Manager. At least on Mint that's how it is. Click, install, and I believe it tells you to logout and back in.
    - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
      I wouldn't expect a non-tech person to even understand the difference between an operating system and a desktop environment and why you can switch the latter while keeping the former. Nor would I expect them to care.
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      Trivial in the sense of googling "how to install KDE on Ubuntu", picking a result that looks somewhat recent, and following those steps. It ends up being a handful terminal commands which shouldn't be too hard for anybody who has used a keyboard before. That's how I did it at least. There might be more UI centric options. Also, trying to chase the elusive 'casual user' is what caused all the GNOME UX mess in the first place I guess. I'm not an 'archetypical' Linux nerd, I hate wasting time with fixing stuff that should "just work", but I'm also expecting a computer to be a professional tool which I can customize to my needs (within reason at least).
    - 3y ago
- betaby 3y ago
  “Just reinstall” is a solution in Windows world even more often.
- thesuitonym 3y ago
  That's just not true at all. The reason Linux hasn't penetrated the desktop is because it's not installed by default. Even if that isn't the reason, the GPs preference for reinstalling is certainly not. Switching DEs doesn't require reinstalling the OS, it requires searching your distros app store for KDE, and then logging out and selecting "KDE" when you log in again. You could even switch between them each time you log in, depending on your mood that day.
  - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
    No, Linux has poor isolation between the base system and application and third-pardty software and poor backwards compatibility (FreeBSD is slightly better in that respect). The only OSS Posix system that getting it right seems to be Haiku.
    - tapoxi 3y ago
      Fedora Atomic Desktops, Nix
      - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
        This is not how people want it though. The want to be able to install any version of any software old or new irrespectively of the base system. Flatpack is close though.
- stonogo 3y ago
  If that's the case, I'm grateful for it. Why does every tool have to target every person? Maybe it's fine not to dominate every market.
- kelnos 3y ago
  It's funny that you say that, since that was the solution to Windows issues for... decades? Not sure if that's still the case, as I haven't touched it in forever. Regardless, not sure where you've gotten that impression of Linux. The only times I've reinstalled is when I've gotten a new laptop, and in those cases I just copy my home directory over to the new laptop and everything just works. The GP's example of needing to reinstall because they wanted to change desktop environments is nonsensical; I don't think anyone even remotely knowledgeable would recommend a reinstall in that case. Just a trip to the package manager app and a restart. I think there are quite a few reasons why the Linux desktop isn't more common, but "need to reinstall to fix issues" certainly isn't one of them.
  - tcbawo 3y ago
    > The GP's example of needing to reinstall because they wanted to change desktop environments is nonsensical I agree that trying out a new desktop environment by selecting a distro package would not normally require a reinstall. However, in general installing and removing packages (not specifically a desktop manager), especially custom ones with conflicting dependencies can lead to things being broken without a clear direction forward. To paraphrase Tolstoy, each broken system tends to be broken in its own way — which makes it hard to find help. Maybe wifi, sound, or BlueTooth get inexplicably flaky. Or power management. It is not hard for me to imagine a situation where a user just gives up and reinstalls. Reading up on Silverblue (which someone else mentioned) and other technologies like Nix give me hope that things are improving.
- xetplan 3y ago
  For me this has become a feature. I am forced to save things instead of all the times in the past that I have lost important data. If my system blows up right now, I will be wiped clean with a fresh install in less than 15 minutes. I don't really care what other people do with their computers. If someone doesn't want to use Plasma, they are the ones missing out.
nunodonato 3y ago
why wipe out the hard drive, tho? You can usually just switch DEs just fine, this isn't windows :) long gone are the days where we would have 10 different DEs/WMs installed
- doubled112 3y ago
  Wiping and reloading my systems is likely faster than cleaning up thoroughly, but I have backups and some automation.
- asoneth 3y ago
  I borked an installation because it had two desktop environments, and even when it works there always seem to be more odd issues than with a clean install. If you have the time to debug these and straighten them out, it's fine, but given how simple a clean install is these days that's often the easier path.
- curt15 3y ago
  Will package managers remove all traces of the old DE? Back in the day, `apt remove kde-desktop` would not reliably reverse the effects of `apt install kde-desktop`.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    The only good package manager can do it: Nix :D
  - topaz0 3y ago
    > remove all traces You can certainly remove packages that were installed as dependencies, even if `apt remove` doesn't do this by default. I think it's `apt autoremove` or `apt purge` (although I haven't used apt in a long time). All of the package managers I've used have a way to do this. On the other hand, for the average user I don't know why you'd bother. It's not like it's interfering with other stuff you want to do, unless you are extremely tight on hard drive space.
    - okanat 3y ago

KDE has spoiled me. I installed a Gnome distribution a short while back, but used it for a couple of hours and missed KDE so much that I wiped the hard drive and went back to Manjaro and KDE.

tcbawo 3y ago

> wiped the hard drive and went back to Manjaro I think this is the reason Linux hasn't penetrated the desktop more than it has. “Just reinstall” is too often the solution to issues. Starting over will often throw away hours of someone’s time. This can be catastrophic for a non-technical user. I wish the Linux desktop was implemented more like a user extension on top of a rock solid base server layer (eg hypervisor). Maybe such a setup exists, but I’m unaware of it.

georgyo 3y ago
It's not "the solution", it is a solution. It is the easiest solution, requires no research or technical ability, and will not have any left over cruft from the hours of customizing. The same goes for windows, I know people who reinstall every 6 months just to keep their system clean and working optimally. > I wish the Linux desktop was implemented more like a user extension on top of a rock solid base server layer. I would argue that the Linux kernel is that server layer, but let's not open that can of worms. Maybe Fedora Silverblue is up your ally. All the apps, including the desktop environment are containers. Or if you really want an actual hypervisor you could try Qubes, but that is not for the faint of heart.
- qwertox 3y ago
  > I would argue that the Linux kernel is that server layer, but let's not open that can of worms. Yes, the package manager is definitely not a part of the desktop.
- tcbawo 3y ago
  I was not familiar with Silverblue. It looks very promising. The idea of creating a fundamental, shared base system should make troubleshooting significantly easier — possibly an exponential reduction in the possible installed permutations. Thanks for the suggestion!
CoolCold 3y ago
Some say Windows + WSL2 is the most stable ABI/API for the year of Linux on desktop. While its a joke, every joke contains some portion of a joke.
- cpburns2009 3y ago
  I thought the joke was the reverse? The most stable ABI for Linux is Win32 (via Wine of course).
- cfiggers 3y ago
  That's what I use. I love it!
flohofwoe 3y ago
Switching desktop environments on Linux is absolutely trivial and doesn't require a reinstall though (at least in my experience of switching from GNOME to KDE on Ubuntu, which took a couple of minutes to pull down the KDE packages and then logging out and picking Plasma from a dropdown in the login screen - and if I feel like it I can switch back to GNOME anytime).
- askonomm 3y ago
  Trivial to who? A seasoned Linux nerd? Maybe. A regular, non-tech person? Nope. And that is why there is no year of the linux desktop. And if you expect a regular, non-tech person to be able to master the terminal and type in commands you're delusional.
  - markles 3y ago
    You can install it through the Software Manager. At least on Mint that's how it is. Click, install, and I believe it tells you to logout and back in.
  - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
    I wouldn't expect a non-tech person to even understand the difference between an operating system and a desktop environment and why you can switch the latter while keeping the former. Nor would I expect them to care.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    Trivial in the sense of googling "how to install KDE on Ubuntu", picking a result that looks somewhat recent, and following those steps. It ends up being a handful terminal commands which shouldn't be too hard for anybody who has used a keyboard before. That's how I did it at least. There might be more UI centric options. Also, trying to chase the elusive 'casual user' is what caused all the GNOME UX mess in the first place I guess. I'm not an 'archetypical' Linux nerd, I hate wasting time with fixing stuff that should "just work", but I'm also expecting a computer to be a professional tool which I can customize to my needs (within reason at least).
  - 3y ago
betaby 3y ago
“Just reinstall” is a solution in Windows world even more often.
thesuitonym 3y ago
That's just not true at all. The reason Linux hasn't penetrated the desktop is because it's not installed by default. Even if that isn't the reason, the GPs preference for reinstalling is certainly not. Switching DEs doesn't require reinstalling the OS, it requires searching your distros app store for KDE, and then logging out and selecting "KDE" when you log in again. You could even switch between them each time you log in, depending on your mood that day.
- SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
  No, Linux has poor isolation between the base system and application and third-pardty software and poor backwards compatibility (FreeBSD is slightly better in that respect). The only OSS Posix system that getting it right seems to be Haiku.
  - tapoxi 3y ago
    Fedora Atomic Desktops, Nix
    - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
      This is not how people want it though. The want to be able to install any version of any software old or new irrespectively of the base system. Flatpack is close though.
stonogo 3y ago
If that's the case, I'm grateful for it. Why does every tool have to target every person? Maybe it's fine not to dominate every market.
kelnos 3y ago
It's funny that you say that, since that was the solution to Windows issues for... decades? Not sure if that's still the case, as I haven't touched it in forever. Regardless, not sure where you've gotten that impression of Linux. The only times I've reinstalled is when I've gotten a new laptop, and in those cases I just copy my home directory over to the new laptop and everything just works. The GP's example of needing to reinstall because they wanted to change desktop environments is nonsensical; I don't think anyone even remotely knowledgeable would recommend a reinstall in that case. Just a trip to the package manager app and a restart. I think there are quite a few reasons why the Linux desktop isn't more common, but "need to reinstall to fix issues" certainly isn't one of them.
- tcbawo 3y ago
  > The GP's example of needing to reinstall because they wanted to change desktop environments is nonsensical I agree that trying out a new desktop environment by selecting a distro package would not normally require a reinstall. However, in general installing and removing packages (not specifically a desktop manager), especially custom ones with conflicting dependencies can lead to things being broken without a clear direction forward. To paraphrase Tolstoy, each broken system tends to be broken in its own way — which makes it hard to find help. Maybe wifi, sound, or BlueTooth get inexplicably flaky. Or power management. It is not hard for me to imagine a situation where a user just gives up and reinstalls. Reading up on Silverblue (which someone else mentioned) and other technologies like Nix give me hope that things are improving.
xetplan 3y ago
For me this has become a feature. I am forced to save things instead of all the times in the past that I have lost important data. If my system blows up right now, I will be wiped clean with a fresh install in less than 15 minutes. I don't really care what other people do with their computers. If someone doesn't want to use Plasma, they are the ones missing out.

nunodonato 3y ago

why wipe out the hard drive, tho? You can usually just switch DEs just fine, this isn't windows :) long gone are the days where we would have 10 different DEs/WMs installed

doubled112 3y ago
Wiping and reloading my systems is likely faster than cleaning up thoroughly, but I have backups and some automation.
asoneth 3y ago
I borked an installation because it had two desktop environments, and even when it works there always seem to be more odd issues than with a clean install. If you have the time to debug these and straighten them out, it's fine, but given how simple a clean install is these days that's often the easier path.
curt15 3y ago
Will package managers remove all traces of the old DE? Back in the day, `apt remove kde-desktop` would not reliably reverse the effects of `apt install kde-desktop`.
- kaba0 3y ago
  The only good package manager can do it: Nix :D
- topaz0 3y ago
  > remove all traces You can certainly remove packages that were installed as dependencies, even if `apt remove` doesn't do this by default. I think it's `apt autoremove` or `apt purge` (although I haven't used apt in a long time). All of the package managers I've used have a way to do this. On the other hand, for the average user I don't know why you'd bother. It's not like it's interfering with other stuff you want to do, unless you are extremely tight on hard drive space.
  - okanat 3y ago