6 ms·

I'm way more excited about the super stable jitter than the downlink speed. Parameter REV3 REV4 Download speed, Mbps 199 307 Upload sp

I'm way more excited about the super stable jitter than the downlink speed. Parameter REV3 REV4 Download speed, Mbps 199 307 Upload speed, Mbps 10 15 Average ping, ms 93 88 Jitter, ms 111.9 9.2 Max power, W 55 100

liotier 3y ago
> I'm way more excited about the super stable jitter Indeed - significant quality of life improvement for drone operators !
- morphle 3y ago
  I'm afraid it's mostly the opposite, a death rate improvement. I can't find the publication with the official soldier death toll numbers - not that you can trust any wartime publication - but the second highest death toll was for Ukrainian drone operators. The highest still is for Starlink terminal operators, mostly soldiers too. I spoke with a few while they where under fire and we both where scared as hell that they would target the Starlink dish (it has two very unique radio signatures) while we where video conferencing with it. Now its worse, the Russians also use them [1]. [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/11/ukraine-intelligence-confirms-russian-forces-using-starlink https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/11/ukraine-intelligenc...
  - inemesitaffia 3y ago
    They've been warned to stop using Wi-Fi especially the stock router. Russia has publicly mentioned having 2.4 and 5 Ghz truck mounted scanners (Tobol)
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    I'm probably clueless, but wouldn't it be of benefit to run long cables to place transmitting antennas at a safe distance from the operator? I'm thinking something like 100m but maybe that doesn't make much difference under shelling.
    - morphle 3y ago
      Firstly, Starlink cables are 1 Gbps ethernet with PoE [1]. This means 53V DC power over thin twisted pair cables, after a few meters the voltage drops below 48V DC and the cables start showing up in infrared because they are heated by the electrical resistance. Standard Starlink cables can't reach further than +/- 30 meters reliably. Those 30 meters run to the wifi router where your power supply must be. You certainly can't be mobile anymore with this setup. We use optical fiber instead but this requires a very large, heavy and warm battery to stay very close to the Starlink dish while the operator can now be kilometers away. You can now disable the Starlink Wifi router but only if you patch the encrypted firmware and spoof the account credentials. SpaceX calls that illegal and will disable and brick your hardware as soon as they find out. Doing this extensive conversion is only for very capable hackers and has been done by only three people on our planet, as far as I am aware [2][3]. If you need similar patching and optical wireing, we will be happy to eductate you, for a small fee. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet [2] https://hackaday.com/2023/08/31/diving-into-starlinks-user-terminal-firmware/ https://hackaday.com/2023/08/31/diving-into-starlinks-user-t... [3] https://www.wired.com/story/starlink-internet-dish-hack/ https://www.wired.com/story/starlink-internet-dish-hack/
      - inemesitaffia 3y ago
        Use a Yaosheng injector
      - throwaway-571 3y ago
        I’m surprised that opening the router and physically disabling the wifi antenna is not a solution. I would understand that running the router in a faraday cage is not viable as the ethernet cable has to get from the router to the dish.
        sneak 3y ago
        A faraday cage with a hole only big enough for an ethernet cable would almost certainly still block enough wifi that the signal would only be detectable for a few meters. Probably not very much would leak through the cable. It would be dwarfed by the emanations from the, you know, space transmitter co-located with it. Locating the dish isn’t the issue, the proposal was using fiber to make the dish (detectable) and the operator (vulnerable) separated by distance.
  - dalore 3y ago
    The source for that is the "Ministry of Defence’s Main Directorate of Intelligence (GUR)" so I would take that with a huge grain of salt. They are a bit upset that Musk refused to allow them an offensive use of Starlink which would have, in his opinion, escalated the war. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/musk-says-he-refused-kyiv-request-use-starlink-attack-russia-2023-09-08/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/musk-says-he-refused-ky...
    - morphle 3y ago
      Things chance quickly in a war, the situation is now (29 Februari 2024) very different. Starlinks mounted on drones by both sides, for example. Nato and US militairy paying for special Starlink. Jamming at 10Ghz-60Ghz.
      - ackbar03 3y ago
        Wait, they're mounting starlink on drones? Is that actually a thing?
        morphle 3y ago
        At least one sea drone had one? [2]. "The first casualty when war comes is truth" [1] https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=starlink+on+sea+drone&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=starlin... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFhADRYXi_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFhADRYXi_8
        inemesitaffia 3y ago
        Baba Yaga and boat drones
      - zug_zug 3y ago
        Could you share a source for that if we wanted to learn more?
        morphle 3y ago
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
BiteCode_dev 3y ago
Sub 100 ms of ping is super good for space internet, but with 111 of Jitter it meant not much. With 9.2, 88 will always feel like sub 100, and that's indeed a huge quality of life.
- FuriouslyAdrift 3y ago
  Benefits of low earth orbit...
- olyjohn 3y ago
  I'm on a gen 1 dish. And sometimes my ping is under 20ms, usually it's around 40-60. This guys ping is terrible, and he has shitloads of obstructions.
NelsonMinar 3y ago
I'm a little skeptical about that jitter comparison, I'd like to see more info. I don't see anything in this excellent report that sheds light on the difference (and honestly don't see that difference in the graphs.) Mostly I'm curious how the hardware is the limiting factor here, I always assumed it was a combination of queueing in the Starlink infrastructure plus retransmits. Maybe a better antenna lowers the number of retransmits needed? I don't have a proper jitter measure, but FWIW my Gen 1 Starlink in Grass Valley, CA has a round trip time (measured with IRTT) that varies from 30-60ms over minutes. That improved significantly in January 2024 after some change Starlink made. Previously it was more like 40-100ms.
newsclues 3y ago
Max power nearly doubled for these improvements but did average power consumption also increase?
alach11 3y ago
Didn't the FTC just cut funding to Starlink in December for failing to meet the download speed targets? Seems like that decision was really premature, seeing as how they had years remaining to meet the targets and they're showing rapid improvement year-over-year.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Because it was based on politics and not reality.
- morphle 3y ago
  Politics not discussed in public was behind it.
- hobotime 3y ago
  Musk also runs Twitter and needs to be punished.
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  FCC

liotier 3y ago

> I'm way more excited about the super stable jitter Indeed - significant quality of life improvement for drone operators !

morphle 3y ago
I'm afraid it's mostly the opposite, a death rate improvement. I can't find the publication with the official soldier death toll numbers - not that you can trust any wartime publication - but the second highest death toll was for Ukrainian drone operators. The highest still is for Starlink terminal operators, mostly soldiers too. I spoke with a few while they where under fire and we both where scared as hell that they would target the Starlink dish (it has two very unique radio signatures) while we where video conferencing with it. Now its worse, the Russians also use them [1]. [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/11/ukraine-intelligence-confirms-russian-forces-using-starlink https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/11/ukraine-intelligenc...
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  They've been warned to stop using Wi-Fi especially the stock router. Russia has publicly mentioned having 2.4 and 5 Ghz truck mounted scanners (Tobol)
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  I'm probably clueless, but wouldn't it be of benefit to run long cables to place transmitting antennas at a safe distance from the operator? I'm thinking something like 100m but maybe that doesn't make much difference under shelling.
  - morphle 3y ago
    Firstly, Starlink cables are 1 Gbps ethernet with PoE [1]. This means 53V DC power over thin twisted pair cables, after a few meters the voltage drops below 48V DC and the cables start showing up in infrared because they are heated by the electrical resistance. Standard Starlink cables can't reach further than +/- 30 meters reliably. Those 30 meters run to the wifi router where your power supply must be. You certainly can't be mobile anymore with this setup. We use optical fiber instead but this requires a very large, heavy and warm battery to stay very close to the Starlink dish while the operator can now be kilometers away. You can now disable the Starlink Wifi router but only if you patch the encrypted firmware and spoof the account credentials. SpaceX calls that illegal and will disable and brick your hardware as soon as they find out. Doing this extensive conversion is only for very capable hackers and has been done by only three people on our planet, as far as I am aware [2][3]. If you need similar patching and optical wireing, we will be happy to eductate you, for a small fee. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet [2] https://hackaday.com/2023/08/31/diving-into-starlinks-user-terminal-firmware/ https://hackaday.com/2023/08/31/diving-into-starlinks-user-t... [3] https://www.wired.com/story/starlink-internet-dish-hack/ https://www.wired.com/story/starlink-internet-dish-hack/
    - inemesitaffia 3y ago
      Use a Yaosheng injector
    - throwaway-571 3y ago
      I’m surprised that opening the router and physically disabling the wifi antenna is not a solution. I would understand that running the router in a faraday cage is not viable as the ethernet cable has to get from the router to the dish.
      - sneak 3y ago
        A faraday cage with a hole only big enough for an ethernet cable would almost certainly still block enough wifi that the signal would only be detectable for a few meters. Probably not very much would leak through the cable. It would be dwarfed by the emanations from the, you know, space transmitter co-located with it. Locating the dish isn’t the issue, the proposal was using fiber to make the dish (detectable) and the operator (vulnerable) separated by distance.
- dalore 3y ago
  The source for that is the "Ministry of Defence’s Main Directorate of Intelligence (GUR)" so I would take that with a huge grain of salt. They are a bit upset that Musk refused to allow them an offensive use of Starlink which would have, in his opinion, escalated the war. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/musk-says-he-refused-kyiv-request-use-starlink-attack-russia-2023-09-08/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/musk-says-he-refused-ky...
  - morphle 3y ago
    Things chance quickly in a war, the situation is now (29 Februari 2024) very different. Starlinks mounted on drones by both sides, for example. Nato and US militairy paying for special Starlink. Jamming at 10Ghz-60Ghz.
    - ackbar03 3y ago
      Wait, they're mounting starlink on drones? Is that actually a thing?
      - morphle 3y ago
        At least one sea drone had one? [2]. "The first casualty when war comes is truth" [1] https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=starlink+on+sea+drone&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=starlin... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFhADRYXi_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFhADRYXi_8
      - inemesitaffia 3y ago
        Baba Yaga and boat drones
    - zug_zug 3y ago
      Could you share a source for that if we wanted to learn more?
      - morphle 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

BiteCode_dev 3y ago

Sub 100 ms of ping is super good for space internet, but with 111 of Jitter it meant not much. With 9.2, 88 will always feel like sub 100, and that's indeed a huge quality of life.

FuriouslyAdrift 3y ago
Benefits of low earth orbit...
olyjohn 3y ago
I'm on a gen 1 dish. And sometimes my ping is under 20ms, usually it's around 40-60. This guys ping is terrible, and he has shitloads of obstructions.

NelsonMinar 3y ago

I'm a little skeptical about that jitter comparison, I'd like to see more info. I don't see anything in this excellent report that sheds light on the difference (and honestly don't see that difference in the graphs.) Mostly I'm curious how the hardware is the limiting factor here, I always assumed it was a combination of queueing in the Starlink infrastructure plus retransmits. Maybe a better antenna lowers the number of retransmits needed? I don't have a proper jitter measure, but FWIW my Gen 1 Starlink in Grass Valley, CA has a round trip time (measured with IRTT) that varies from 30-60ms over minutes. That improved significantly in January 2024 after some change Starlink made. Previously it was more like 40-100ms.

newsclues 3y ago

Max power nearly doubled for these improvements but did average power consumption also increase?

alach11 3y ago

Didn't the FTC just cut funding to Starlink in December for failing to meet the download speed targets? Seems like that decision was really premature, seeing as how they had years remaining to meet the targets and they're showing rapid improvement year-over-year.

panick21_ 3y ago
Because it was based on politics and not reality.
morphle 3y ago
Politics not discussed in public was behind it.
hobotime 3y ago
Musk also runs Twitter and needs to be punished.
inemesitaffia 3y ago
FCC