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Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the ex

by gms 14y ago

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be worse-off.

j_baker 14y ago
You mean a sizable subset of workers have decided they're worth their time. I think it's worth bringing up Maslowe's hierarchy of needs. If you can't afford to eat or pay rent, the experience you're getting is among the least of your concerns. If your food and rent situation is taken care of beforehand (and it's almost always done so by someone else), then you get to base your decision on whether or not the time is worth the experience.
- gms 14y ago
  This dilemma applies to everyone. If you can't afford to do what you want, then earn money doing something else until you can. Alternatively, do both at the same time, using your earned money to simultaneously subsidise your time doing the other thing. It's also possible that you decide this unpaid experience is just not worth it after all, in which case you can get a job that actually pays.
evoxed 14y ago
I can't speak directly about the tech industry, but this is absolutely not the case in architecture and engineering. Your tasks may not be the most critical part of any project, but they are incredibly time intensive and would otherwise cost the firm a huge chunk of money. CAD monkeys are the quickest example, although physical model builders get quite a share of gruntwork as well. Outsourcing that work costs tens of thousands per project, but a 2nd year masters student will do it for free because it's the only way to get their IDP hours to sit for the licensing exam. There have been many discussions about this between architects and these days there are just some firms that have a reputation for churning through interns for free labor... Banning them is a tense subject for many, but many have taken the stance that after some period of months/years such practices are unethical. I can't recall the AIA's official stance.
eli_gottlieb 14y ago
By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!
- drumdance 14y ago
  Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.
  - blindhippo 14y ago
    Err what? Not as crazy... Care to back this statement up with references to said "economists"? If you give organizations the option to employ people and just randomly decide not to pay them, they will at every opportunity NOT pay time. This is basic logic... the motivators for the organization propel this behavior and the American market system will reward them for it - these economists you speak of are likely cracked.
    - gms 14y ago
      The free market actually doesn't reward this behaviour. Consider that organisations that decide not to pay their workers might very well lose out to those who do. If Organisation A doesn't pay their workers, then all my organisation has to do to steal their productive workers is to offer a wage. Organisation A loses out and eventually has to shut down, while I and the workers win.
      - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
        Oh bullshit. If Organization A doesn't pay its workers, Organization B will notice that Organization A has gotten away with it. Then, Organization B will stop paying their workers, since after all, each employer who stops paying increases the degree of monopsony buying labor for zero.
        gms 14y ago
epsil 14y ago
Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. ... If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore. That depends upon the demand curve for internship labor. If the demand is perfectly elastic, no internships will be offered at a higher wage; if the demand is somewhat elastic, less internships will be offered; and if the demand is inelastic, the number of offered internships will be unchanged. What we are observing is a single data point: the intersection between the supply and demand curves. We cannot extrapolate the full curves from it. That organizations aren't paying for internships under present circumstances, doesn't mean that they wouldn't pay for internships under different circumstances. All it means is that the organizations have the upper hand in the transaction.
- gms 14y ago
  Thanks for raising this point. I didn't think about this.

by gms 14y ago

j_baker 14y ago

You mean a sizable subset of workers have decided they're worth their time. I think it's worth bringing up Maslowe's hierarchy of needs. If you can't afford to eat or pay rent, the experience you're getting is among the least of your concerns. If your food and rent situation is taken care of beforehand (and it's almost always done so by someone else), then you get to base your decision on whether or not the time is worth the experience.

gms 14y ago
This dilemma applies to everyone. If you can't afford to do what you want, then earn money doing something else until you can. Alternatively, do both at the same time, using your earned money to simultaneously subsidise your time doing the other thing. It's also possible that you decide this unpaid experience is just not worth it after all, in which case you can get a job that actually pays.

evoxed 14y ago

I can't speak directly about the tech industry, but this is absolutely not the case in architecture and engineering. Your tasks may not be the most critical part of any project, but they are incredibly time intensive and would otherwise cost the firm a huge chunk of money. CAD monkeys are the quickest example, although physical model builders get quite a share of gruntwork as well. Outsourcing that work costs tens of thousands per project, but a 2nd year masters student will do it for free because it's the only way to get their IDP hours to sit for the licensing exam. There have been many discussions about this between architects and these days there are just some firms that have a reputation for churning through interns for free labor... Banning them is a tense subject for many, but many have taken the stance that after some period of months/years such practices are unethical. I can't recall the AIA's official stance.

eli_gottlieb 14y ago

By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!

drumdance 14y ago
Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.
- blindhippo 14y ago
  Err what? Not as crazy... Care to back this statement up with references to said "economists"? If you give organizations the option to employ people and just randomly decide not to pay them, they will at every opportunity NOT pay time. This is basic logic... the motivators for the organization propel this behavior and the American market system will reward them for it - these economists you speak of are likely cracked.
  - gms 14y ago
    The free market actually doesn't reward this behaviour. Consider that organisations that decide not to pay their workers might very well lose out to those who do. If Organisation A doesn't pay their workers, then all my organisation has to do to steal their productive workers is to offer a wage. Organisation A loses out and eventually has to shut down, while I and the workers win.
    - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
      Oh bullshit. If Organization A doesn't pay its workers, Organization B will notice that Organization A has gotten away with it. Then, Organization B will stop paying their workers, since after all, each employer who stops paying increases the degree of monopsony buying labor for zero.
      - gms 14y ago

epsil 14y ago

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. ... If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore. That depends upon the demand curve for internship labor. If the demand is perfectly elastic, no internships will be offered at a higher wage; if the demand is somewhat elastic, less internships will be offered; and if the demand is inelastic, the number of offered internships will be unchanged. What we are observing is a single data point: the intersection between the supply and demand curves. We cannot extrapolate the full curves from it. That organizations aren't paying for internships under present circumstances, doesn't mean that they wouldn't pay for internships under different circumstances. All it means is that the organizations have the upper hand in the transaction.

gms 14y ago
Thanks for raising this point. I didn't think about this.