3 ms·

It's obvious the way they were treated was through death. I can't imagine historical societies wouldn't immediately kill someone who was obviously so different

It's obvious the way they were treated was through death. I can't imagine historical societies wouldn't immediately kill someone who was obviously so different than the masses. I mean, weren't those societies the same ones who would burn suspected witches at the stake?

asveikau 3y ago
Did you read the article? It says they were buried with jewelry, in a location where they usually cremated people. That suggests they were revered in some way.
- red75prime 3y ago
  This indicates they were singled out. Was it reverence or an offering to the gods to prevent repetition (or maybe a combination of both) is anyone's guess.
- Daub 3y ago
  Anyone who has worked or lived with down syndrome people know that they are indeed special: empathetic to a fault and intensely social. https://adscresources.advocatehealth.com/social-sensitivity/#:~:text=Because%20of%20this%2C%20people%20with,and%20especially%20to%20significant%20others https://adscresources.advocatehealth.com/social-sensitivity/....
  - GordonS 3y ago
    Anyone who has actually worked or lived with people with Down's Syndrome knows that's an unrealistic stereotype. People with Down's are have individual personalities, just like anyone else. My daughter has Down's, so we're familiar with several other people with Down's (through support groups, sport groups etc). I can assure you, they are all very different, and this idea that everyone with Down's is happy and smiley all the time needs to die.
    - Daub 3y ago
      I respect your experience with yourvdaughter. I absolutely did not mean to two-dimensionalise anyone with downs and apologize if I gave such impression. However, i speak from experaince having lived with many down syndrome kids for many years. Though they were all manifestly and clearly individuals, there was also a commonality between them. Check out the academic studies in the link I shared which supports this impression. THe link between selfhood (if I may term it such) and the body is something that has been discussed for centuries, with most of that discussion being mumbo jumbo (eg the four temprements). But there does seem to be some mechanism at work. I know that Crohn's disease and Celiac disease are both associated with certain personalitytypes. That's not to say that there condition defines who they are, rather it informs it.
      - asveikau 3y ago
        > I know that Crohn's disease and Celiac disease are both associated with certain personalitytypes. Off topic, but I hadn't heard much of this. Do you have sources? I googled. Here's one interesting thing I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814534/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814534/ I found claims of correlation with stress and anxiety (seems kind of obvious), and type D personalities (a categorization I've never heard of before, but seemingly includes negativity, hostility, suppressed anger). It seems hard to me to ascertain whether these are a cause of illness, a reaction to illness, maybe even a vicious-cycle type of reaction that serves to make the illness worse ... Or just correlation. One factor among many. A rut that people fall in. Maybe all of this.
        Daub 3y ago
        > Off topic, but I hadn't heard much of this. Do you have sources? I have no other sources apart from anecdotes from a childhood friend with Celiac. He claimed that it was common knowledge in the Celiac community. I did the same search that you likely did and there seems to be some supporting evidence for such association. > Or just correlation. One factor among many. A rut that people fall in. Maybe all of this. I think this likely accounts for much condition-associated personality behavior, but not all. A few years ago I was diagnosed with Ehlers Danlos. Shortly after I stumbled across this: https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/2017-eds-classification-non-experts/psychiatric-psychological-aspects-ehlers-danlos-syndromes/ https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/2017-eds-classification-non-ex... Of course, the pain of Ehlers will inevitable impact upon personality, that is obvious (fortunately my pain is manageable). But also mentioned is this: > The underlying mechanisms include genetic risks, problems with the automatic control of body functions, sensitivity to external and internal stimuli, and decreased sense of position. Recent studies have also shown an increase response in emotion processing brain areas which could explain the high emotional reactivity. 'Decreased sense of position' seems so odd and specific and something I clearly recognize in myself.
plorg 3y ago
The witch burning garbage happened within the last 500 years. That's way closer to today than the 5000 years ago we're talking about. And this seems very culturally dependent.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Xenophobia dates back way further than that and is even still an issue today (see transphobia)
  - allendoerfer 3y ago
    I hope you are not elevating these two topics to the same level. The way we treat trans person in the West is wildly better. Unimaginably better even (see holocaust).
    - wizzwizz4 3y ago
      The Opernplatz book burning was the destruction of the archives of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, which was basically the research centre for trans and intersex people. Plenty of people were persecuted in the Holocaust: > Als Pastor Niemöller ins Konzentrationslager kam, schrieben wir 1937, als das Konzentrationslager aufgemacht wurde, da schrieben wir 1933, und die damals in die Konzentrationslager kamen, waren Kommunisten. Wer hat sich darum gekümmert? Wir haben es gewußt, es stand in den Zeitungen. Wer hat die Stimme erhoben, etwa die Bekennende Kirche? Wir haben gedacht: Kommunisten, diese Religionsgegner, diese Christenfeinde - "soll ich meines Bruders Hüter sein?" Dann hat man die Kranken, die sogenannten Unheilbaren beseitigt. - Ich erinnere mich eines Gespräches mit einem Menschen, der Anspruch darauf erhob, ein Christ zu sein. Er meinte: Vielleicht ist es ganz richtig, diese unheibaren Menschen kosten den Staat nur Geld, sie sind sich und den andern nur zur Last. Ist es nicht das Beste für alle Teile, wenn man sie aus der Mitte schafft? -- Dann erst ist es an die Kirche als solche herangekommen. Dann haben wir einen Ton geredet, bis er dann in der Öffentlichkeit wieder verstummt ist. Können wir sagen, wir sind nicht schuld? Die Judenverfolgung, die Art und Weise, wie wir die besetzten Länder behandelten, oder die Dinge in Griechenland, in Polen, in der Tschechoslowakei oder in Holland, die doch in der Zeitung gestanden haben. … Let's… not get into this? It's not the Oppression Olympics, and this has nothing to do with the article.
flextheruler 3y ago
Assuredly that was how most were treated. The well preserved remains we find are so usually because of two cases 1) environmental such as cold or swamp preserved them 2) burial preservation which would indicate they were children of those with wealth and status Obviously these remains if they were buried with jewelry were likely the ancient equivalent of nobility.
solumunus 3y ago
Human empathy is not a new thing. The behavior you describe would be entirely dependent on culture. You could easily imagine a culture where people with down syndrome were venerated as a gift from the gods. Outside of these extremes it's entirely plausible that members of the tribe who needed to be looked after were simply looked after. Your imagination of all historical societies as entirely savage is incredibly reductive.

asveikau 3y ago

Did you read the article? It says they were buried with jewelry, in a location where they usually cremated people. That suggests they were revered in some way.

red75prime 3y ago
This indicates they were singled out. Was it reverence or an offering to the gods to prevent repetition (or maybe a combination of both) is anyone's guess.
Daub 3y ago
Anyone who has worked or lived with down syndrome people know that they are indeed special: empathetic to a fault and intensely social. https://adscresources.advocatehealth.com/social-sensitivity/#:~:text=Because%20of%20this%2C%20people%20with,and%20especially%20to%20significant%20others https://adscresources.advocatehealth.com/social-sensitivity/....
- GordonS 3y ago
  Anyone who has actually worked or lived with people with Down's Syndrome knows that's an unrealistic stereotype. People with Down's are have individual personalities, just like anyone else. My daughter has Down's, so we're familiar with several other people with Down's (through support groups, sport groups etc). I can assure you, they are all very different, and this idea that everyone with Down's is happy and smiley all the time needs to die.
  - Daub 3y ago
    I respect your experience with yourvdaughter. I absolutely did not mean to two-dimensionalise anyone with downs and apologize if I gave such impression. However, i speak from experaince having lived with many down syndrome kids for many years. Though they were all manifestly and clearly individuals, there was also a commonality between them. Check out the academic studies in the link I shared which supports this impression. THe link between selfhood (if I may term it such) and the body is something that has been discussed for centuries, with most of that discussion being mumbo jumbo (eg the four temprements). But there does seem to be some mechanism at work. I know that Crohn's disease and Celiac disease are both associated with certain personalitytypes. That's not to say that there condition defines who they are, rather it informs it.
    - asveikau 3y ago
      > I know that Crohn's disease and Celiac disease are both associated with certain personalitytypes. Off topic, but I hadn't heard much of this. Do you have sources? I googled. Here's one interesting thing I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814534/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4814534/ I found claims of correlation with stress and anxiety (seems kind of obvious), and type D personalities (a categorization I've never heard of before, but seemingly includes negativity, hostility, suppressed anger). It seems hard to me to ascertain whether these are a cause of illness, a reaction to illness, maybe even a vicious-cycle type of reaction that serves to make the illness worse ... Or just correlation. One factor among many. A rut that people fall in. Maybe all of this.
      - Daub 3y ago
        > Off topic, but I hadn't heard much of this. Do you have sources? I have no other sources apart from anecdotes from a childhood friend with Celiac. He claimed that it was common knowledge in the Celiac community. I did the same search that you likely did and there seems to be some supporting evidence for such association. > Or just correlation. One factor among many. A rut that people fall in. Maybe all of this. I think this likely accounts for much condition-associated personality behavior, but not all. A few years ago I was diagnosed with Ehlers Danlos. Shortly after I stumbled across this: https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/2017-eds-classification-non-experts/psychiatric-psychological-aspects-ehlers-danlos-syndromes/ https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/2017-eds-classification-non-ex... Of course, the pain of Ehlers will inevitable impact upon personality, that is obvious (fortunately my pain is manageable). But also mentioned is this: > The underlying mechanisms include genetic risks, problems with the automatic control of body functions, sensitivity to external and internal stimuli, and decreased sense of position. Recent studies have also shown an increase response in emotion processing brain areas which could explain the high emotional reactivity. 'Decreased sense of position' seems so odd and specific and something I clearly recognize in myself.

plorg 3y ago

The witch burning garbage happened within the last 500 years. That's way closer to today than the 5000 years ago we're talking about. And this seems very culturally dependent.

LoganDark 3y ago
Xenophobia dates back way further than that and is even still an issue today (see transphobia)
- allendoerfer 3y ago
  I hope you are not elevating these two topics to the same level. The way we treat trans person in the West is wildly better. Unimaginably better even (see holocaust).
  - wizzwizz4 3y ago
    The Opernplatz book burning was the destruction of the archives of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, which was basically the research centre for trans and intersex people. Plenty of people were persecuted in the Holocaust: > Als Pastor Niemöller ins Konzentrationslager kam, schrieben wir 1937, als das Konzentrationslager aufgemacht wurde, da schrieben wir 1933, und die damals in die Konzentrationslager kamen, waren Kommunisten. Wer hat sich darum gekümmert? Wir haben es gewußt, es stand in den Zeitungen. Wer hat die Stimme erhoben, etwa die Bekennende Kirche? Wir haben gedacht: Kommunisten, diese Religionsgegner, diese Christenfeinde - "soll ich meines Bruders Hüter sein?" Dann hat man die Kranken, die sogenannten Unheilbaren beseitigt. - Ich erinnere mich eines Gespräches mit einem Menschen, der Anspruch darauf erhob, ein Christ zu sein. Er meinte: Vielleicht ist es ganz richtig, diese unheibaren Menschen kosten den Staat nur Geld, sie sind sich und den andern nur zur Last. Ist es nicht das Beste für alle Teile, wenn man sie aus der Mitte schafft? -- Dann erst ist es an die Kirche als solche herangekommen. Dann haben wir einen Ton geredet, bis er dann in der Öffentlichkeit wieder verstummt ist. Können wir sagen, wir sind nicht schuld? Die Judenverfolgung, die Art und Weise, wie wir die besetzten Länder behandelten, oder die Dinge in Griechenland, in Polen, in der Tschechoslowakei oder in Holland, die doch in der Zeitung gestanden haben. … Let's… not get into this? It's not the Oppression Olympics, and this has nothing to do with the article.

flextheruler 3y ago

Assuredly that was how most were treated. The well preserved remains we find are so usually because of two cases 1) environmental such as cold or swamp preserved them 2) burial preservation which would indicate they were children of those with wealth and status Obviously these remains if they were buried with jewelry were likely the ancient equivalent of nobility.

solumunus 3y ago

Human empathy is not a new thing. The behavior you describe would be entirely dependent on culture. You could easily imagine a culture where people with down syndrome were venerated as a gift from the gods. Outside of these extremes it's entirely plausible that members of the tribe who needed to be looked after were simply looked after. Your imagination of all historical societies as entirely savage is incredibly reductive.