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> This is tragic but it's noteworthy because it is NOT the norm. Unlike, say, what's going on in Ukraine with frequent missile strikes into arbitrary civilian a

> This is tragic but it's noteworthy because it is NOT the norm. Unlike, say, what's going on in Ukraine with frequent missile strikes into arbitrary civilian areas. Let's not dismiss the propaganda factor here. No one caring about their livelihood in the west will ever be digging too deep into US/NATO totally-not-war-crimes-just-collateral-shit-happens-you-know, as well as no one will be arguing Russia's case the same way Ukraine's attacks over Belgorod Region and office buildings in Moscow are excused with "this missile/drone was on its way to a military target, but was shot down over civilians heads by air defense". Assange's case is a very illustrative example what happens when something gets loud enough to actually matter and disrupt the image of righteousness.

overstay8930 3y ago
Everyone knows the US and NATO have done horrible shit, but unless you have a child's view of the world it's incredibly obvious that the US and NATO take incredible steps to minimize civilian casualties. Much more than non-NATO aligned military powers. It's good to learn about the past, but it doesn't actually tell you anything about how modern western military operations actually work. You'll always be able to cherry pick random platoons doing heinous shit because humans are still humans. Just because you are from the west does not mean you are better than anyone else.
- sschueller 3y ago
  Is this how people excuse away the genocide currently being committed by Israel with the support of the United States? The US is the only reason this is still going and children are currently starving to death. As long it's for the greater good its ok right? /s
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > US is the only reason this is still going America is far from the only reason for the War is Gaza. It’s a major contributor to Israel’s war machine, but it’s also one to Palestinian aid.
    - sschueller 3y ago
      When the US is the only one holding up their hand at the UN against an immediate ceasefire the last 3 times it came up, it is quit difficult to make this claim.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > When the US is the only one holding up their hand at the UN against an immediate ceasefire the last 3 times it came up The only one on the SC. Lots of countries have violated UN resolutions, including practically every member of the SC. This is far from evidence of being the sole reason for anything.
        enterprise_cog 3y ago
        What does that have to do with the US vetoing a ceasefire? It is direct evidence the government is complicit in the genocide.
      - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        In addition to what JumpCrisscross said, you seem to assume that, if the UN passed a resolution for an immediate ceasefire, that fire would actually cease. I see absolutely no reason for that assumption.
        sschueller 3y ago
        If the resolution has no effect why would the US risk being seen as a genocide supporting nation by vetoing every resolution? The US is also risking loosing the veto as many are now considering changing how the SC works. The SCs job is to secure global security and peace. The US is doing the absolute opposite.
        enterprise_cog 3y ago
        Then when Israel continues their genocide you strip them of the munitions we supplied. If they continue then a global force can move into Israel and enforce a no fly zone and prevent further bombings. If we don’t even take the first step of trying to stop it we are complicit and the primary reason it is ongoing.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > it's incredibly obvious that the US and NATO take incredible steps to minimize civilian casualties And to substantiate that, look at the ratio of military to civilian deaths. In modern warfare, America’s numbers are incredibly low. Our problem isn’t that we fight brutally, but that we get pulled into fights a lot.
  - sschueller 3y ago
    Bullshit, the Unites States just legalize/justify their brutality. Torture becomes enhanced interrogation technique, Assassination List is the Disposition Matrix etc. etc.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Torture becomes enhanced interrogation technique Which you know about because it became subject to protests and litigation in America and open Congressional scrutiny. (It remains a travesty there has been no legal action in its respect.) I'm not saying America doesn't do terrible things. Just that the rate at which it does so is dramatically lower than others. If you had to face military action from a foreign power, America is the best of the lot. Of course, that doesn't change that you'd rather not face military action from any foreign power.
      - enterprise_cog 3y ago
        We know it happened because of leaks that would get you thrown into prison now, and no one in charge was held accountable. So not sure what you’re trying to get at there. As for your second point, your last statement is what matters. The us has engaged in more foreign military actions than any other nation since WW2. Who cares if they mask the brutality behind terms like precision strikes and collateral damage. We do terrible things and we do them frequently, usually for no benefit to anyone other than a select few. Everything you said is just trying to rationalize the fact we are the most aggressive country on the earth.

overstay8930 3y ago

Everyone knows the US and NATO have done horrible shit, but unless you have a child's view of the world it's incredibly obvious that the US and NATO take incredible steps to minimize civilian casualties. Much more than non-NATO aligned military powers. It's good to learn about the past, but it doesn't actually tell you anything about how modern western military operations actually work. You'll always be able to cherry pick random platoons doing heinous shit because humans are still humans. Just because you are from the west does not mean you are better than anyone else.

sschueller 3y ago
Is this how people excuse away the genocide currently being committed by Israel with the support of the United States? The US is the only reason this is still going and children are currently starving to death. As long it's for the greater good its ok right? /s
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > US is the only reason this is still going America is far from the only reason for the War is Gaza. It’s a major contributor to Israel’s war machine, but it’s also one to Palestinian aid.
  - sschueller 3y ago
    When the US is the only one holding up their hand at the UN against an immediate ceasefire the last 3 times it came up, it is quit difficult to make this claim.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > When the US is the only one holding up their hand at the UN against an immediate ceasefire the last 3 times it came up The only one on the SC. Lots of countries have violated UN resolutions, including practically every member of the SC. This is far from evidence of being the sole reason for anything.
      - enterprise_cog 3y ago
        What does that have to do with the US vetoing a ceasefire? It is direct evidence the government is complicit in the genocide.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      In addition to what JumpCrisscross said, you seem to assume that, if the UN passed a resolution for an immediate ceasefire, that fire would actually cease. I see absolutely no reason for that assumption.
      - sschueller 3y ago
        If the resolution has no effect why would the US risk being seen as a genocide supporting nation by vetoing every resolution? The US is also risking loosing the veto as many are now considering changing how the SC works. The SCs job is to secure global security and peace. The US is doing the absolute opposite.
      - enterprise_cog 3y ago
        Then when Israel continues their genocide you strip them of the munitions we supplied. If they continue then a global force can move into Israel and enforce a no fly zone and prevent further bombings. If we don’t even take the first step of trying to stop it we are complicit and the primary reason it is ongoing.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> it's incredibly obvious that the US and NATO take incredible steps to minimize civilian casualties And to substantiate that, look at the ratio of military to civilian deaths. In modern warfare, America’s numbers are incredibly low. Our problem isn’t that we fight brutally, but that we get pulled into fights a lot.
- sschueller 3y ago
  Bullshit, the Unites States just legalize/justify their brutality. Torture becomes enhanced interrogation technique, Assassination List is the Disposition Matrix etc. etc.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Torture becomes enhanced interrogation technique Which you know about because it became subject to protests and litigation in America and open Congressional scrutiny. (It remains a travesty there has been no legal action in its respect.) I'm not saying America doesn't do terrible things. Just that the rate at which it does so is dramatically lower than others. If you had to face military action from a foreign power, America is the best of the lot. Of course, that doesn't change that you'd rather not face military action from any foreign power.
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      We know it happened because of leaks that would get you thrown into prison now, and no one in charge was held accountable. So not sure what you’re trying to get at there. As for your second point, your last statement is what matters. The us has engaged in more foreign military actions than any other nation since WW2. Who cares if they mask the brutality behind terms like precision strikes and collateral damage. We do terrible things and we do them frequently, usually for no benefit to anyone other than a select few. Everything you said is just trying to rationalize the fact we are the most aggressive country on the earth.