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I don't buy the argument that unpaid internships are immoral because they disadvantage the underprivileged. Higher education systematically disadvantages the un

by paulgb 15y ago

I don't buy the argument that unpaid internships are immoral because they disadvantage the underprivileged. Higher education systematically disadvantages the underprivileged, especially at US tuition rates. Does that make going to Harvard unethical? There is clearly a supply/demand mismatch in some industries, and unpaid internships are a symptom, not the cause. I get defensive when the issue of unpaid internships comes up because I did an unpaid internship in High School, learned a hell of a lot, and was able to use it to gain well-paid internships throughout college.

j_baker 15y ago
I'd expect that Harvard has at least some scholarships/grants for underprivileged students. Unpaid internships offer no such niceties.
- paulgb 15y ago
  That's fair, but it's still far easier to get a brand-name education in the USA if you come from a middle/upper-class background.
wvenable 15y ago
Honestly comparing an unpaid internship in High School is no where near the same as requiring 20-somethings in college and university to work for free. I also did the unpaid internship thing in high school (which turned in a paid job) and I did a fully paid internships in University. I could not afford to work for free as an 18 year old on my own. It's amazing that in a country with a minimum wage it's still possible to hire people for a job for free.
- paulgb 15y ago
  I'm not saying anything about requiring 20-somethings to work for free. I couldn't have afforded to work for free in college either. I agree that it's a different situation. My point is that I was able to make an informed decision to take an unpaid position, and it benefited me. Had it been a paid position, it either wouldn't have been offered (the department didn't have a lot of money) or would have gone to someone else with more experience. So when people advocate for unpaid internships to be banned, I get frustrated, especially when they say it's for the intern's benefit. Don't get me wrong, it absolutely sucks that it's possible (market-wise) to hire university grads for nothing, but banning unpaid internships doesn't solve the underlying market problem. And I'd argue that it doesn't increase social mobility, either, since floor/ceiling prices tend to encourage nepotism.
  - wvenable 15y ago
    There's currently high unemployment -- could we not eliminate that by making the minimum wage be zero? I'm sure lots of currently out of work individuals would take the opportunity to work for nothing for the off chance of getting a paying job in the future. Isn't that exactly the same thing? I don't believe it's a market problem, it's a social problem. You have this pool of ever increasing free labor not because of the market but because it's now necessary to intern to get a job. If an employer has to choose between someone who will work for free or someone who won't because they can easily get a paying job at Starbucks, who are they going to choose?

by paulgb 15y ago

j_baker 15y ago

I'd expect that Harvard has at least some scholarships/grants for underprivileged students. Unpaid internships offer no such niceties.

paulgb 15y ago
That's fair, but it's still far easier to get a brand-name education in the USA if you come from a middle/upper-class background.

wvenable 15y ago

Honestly comparing an unpaid internship in High School is no where near the same as requiring 20-somethings in college and university to work for free. I also did the unpaid internship thing in high school (which turned in a paid job) and I did a fully paid internships in University. I could not afford to work for free as an 18 year old on my own. It's amazing that in a country with a minimum wage it's still possible to hire people for a job for free.

paulgb 15y ago
I'm not saying anything about requiring 20-somethings to work for free. I couldn't have afforded to work for free in college either. I agree that it's a different situation. My point is that I was able to make an informed decision to take an unpaid position, and it benefited me. Had it been a paid position, it either wouldn't have been offered (the department didn't have a lot of money) or would have gone to someone else with more experience. So when people advocate for unpaid internships to be banned, I get frustrated, especially when they say it's for the intern's benefit. Don't get me wrong, it absolutely sucks that it's possible (market-wise) to hire university grads for nothing, but banning unpaid internships doesn't solve the underlying market problem. And I'd argue that it doesn't increase social mobility, either, since floor/ceiling prices tend to encourage nepotism.
- wvenable 15y ago
  There's currently high unemployment -- could we not eliminate that by making the minimum wage be zero? I'm sure lots of currently out of work individuals would take the opportunity to work for nothing for the off chance of getting a paying job in the future. Isn't that exactly the same thing? I don't believe it's a market problem, it's a social problem. You have this pool of ever increasing free labor not because of the market but because it's now necessary to intern to get a job. If an employer has to choose between someone who will work for free or someone who won't because they can easily get a paying job at Starbucks, who are they going to choose?