5 ms·

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships jus

by phillmv 14y ago

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me: unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality. They obviously limit opportunities for social mobility towards people that can be subsidized, or otherwise have access to liquidity. There's something really insidious about pushing people away from increasingly wide classes of cushy jobs they're otherwise perfectly capable of performing. Startups: pay your (non technical) interns minimum wage, at least. It makes me kind enraged to see this start to happen in our industry.

davedx 14y ago
I hope your last sentence is meant to suggest technical interns should be paid above minimum wage, rather than that only non-techs should be paid fairly?
- nickbarnwell 14y ago
  As I understand it he's commenting more on the internships discussed in the article, those in the film/music/publishing industries, that typically go unpaid.
- paulgb 14y ago
  I think that goes without saying; technical interns are in high enough demand that if you're not paying minimum wage they have options elsewhere.
  - Kuiper 14y ago
    Where I am (midwest USA) technical interns are typically paid at least twice minimum wage; offer anything less than 175% minimum wage and engineering students will dismiss you entirely.
__mark__ 14y ago
From what I hear unpaid internships are common for law students as well. It would be interesting to do more research on this, but I suspect unpaid internships happen in any field that has a surplus of workers. The tech industry doesn't have this problem so most internships are paid.
jreeve 14y ago
"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good way to get even better at whatever you are teaching. So when I was the production manager in charge of making a bunch of marketing sites for small insurance agencies, I called up one of the local universities. They were quite happy (after some conversations with their faculty) to send me a student who was getting ready to graduate and who was interested in creating content for the web. I didn't expect the intern to get any actual work done, just to kind of try and work through some of the projects that we were doing. The work that I was giving him was pretty much the same work that the paid staff were getting, and although we actually did end up using elements of his designs he was much slower and had a much smaller skill set than someone I would actually hire. However, after a semester of working with us, his markup, scripting, and associated skills were a lot better. In addition to his own efforts, I spent time structuring his work assignments in ways that built from one topic to the next, and was available to critique his work in ways that he found useful. So, this relationship was mutually beneficial: he is more skilled than he was, has at least some work experience to put down (other than food service), he received course credit (IIRC), and got a picture of what the inside of that kind of agency looks like. For our part, we got a very small amount of marginal work, and for my personal part I improved my own scripting and CSS skills, in addition to simply enjoying working with folks who are learning. Now, if we were just trying to fill a minimally skilled position with someone who was an employee and skim by calling them an "intern" instead of "an exploited worker", that would be different. But I believe it is possible (though perhaps not likely) that unpaid, non-exploitative internship relationships can exist.
- j_baker 14y ago
  Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?
  - 14y ago
j_baker 14y ago
I think it's much simpler than that. I think it's just that businesses like having free labor. It's much cheaper than paying people, isn't it?
eli_gottlieb 14y ago
Narrative? Any company is going to take free labor if they can get away with it. The problem here is the clear contravention of labor laws.
- phillmv 14y ago
  Yes. But why is this a new situation? What's changed about the economy if this is only now becoming standard practice? Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom? Do we offer unpaid internships because there are just so many people willing to work for free, or do we offer unpaid internships because there are people willing to work for free and everyone else is also doing it? We're only one or two steps away from reverse paid internships, or looking at them as investments. "Seeking executive assistant. Minimum MBA or equivalent post-graduate degree. First one to pony up $20k gets it".
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    It didn't happen over night. We're in a situation where there is little alternative for new graduates. 20 years ago you were special if you went to college, today its just a prereq to not have your resume thrown directly in the trash. Additionally no emphasis is placed on career or skill-learning at college, it's a place to study things that interest you (which I'm all in favor of, but the realities of the world are that the demand for people who know a lot about 16th century literature is low). So we have millions of kids graduating college with no discernable skills, and an industrial economy that is all but dead. Perfect ground for exploitation of these kids who just want to get their foot in the door of some place that has air conditioning and decent medical benefits.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom? Both. That's the way the labor market has always been: a collective-action problem where any one worker can undercut living standards for everyone else in their field whenever supply outnumbers demand. The answer to the problem, traditionally, has been to unionize. We're only one or two steps away from reverse paid internships, or looking at them as investments. "Seeking executive assistant. Minimum MBA or equivalent post-graduate degree. First one to pony up $20k gets it". Which is going to be the point where the Protestant Work Ethic finally breaks down and America's youth goes on strike. I'm looking forward to it.
prostoalex 14y ago
This brings up the question of a value derived from intern's presence. At my first employer out of college non-technical departments hired (unpaid) interns willy-nilly, figuring half of them would turn out to be bozos competent only to run a copy machine or fetch coffee for the team. Since engineering department paid their interns, they always had to work out some project plans and business necessity in order to have the position(s) open for the summer. So kinda obvious that many students did not get a chance to intern, as with paid internships the company was way more frugal and selective.
jlarocco 14y ago
Internships aren't for making money, they're for gaining experience. Getting paid for them is nice, but the experience is the important part. For some companies having to pay interns would just mean they wouldn't offer internships at all. The reason interns are paid less (or not at all) is that there are lower expectations for interns and other staff usually has to take time to mentor them or check their work. Maybe not the best example, but if a new paid employee says, "No, I've never used source control, what's that about?" it's a big problem. If an intern says it, you explain it and move on.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  Maybe not the best example, but if a new paid employee says, "No, I've never used source control, what's that about?" it's a big problem. If an intern says it, you explain it and move on. And thus it came to pass that the unpaid internship replaced the entry-level job. I know there's no point in pleading with an economically rational capitalist like yourself, but stop exploiting the proletariat, or one of these days we won't even walk into your damned office.
  - jlarocco 14y ago
    "... one of these days we won't even walk into your damned office." If you don't think you're being treated fair, that's exactly what you should do. Duh.
  - pcopley 14y ago
    This is honest to god one of the stupidest comments I've ever read anywhere. "Exploiting the proletariat?" Are you fucking kidding me? I got a half semester worth of college credit for various internships and wouldn't have my current job (or subsequently my car or home) had I not had it. Go back to Mother Russia and leave the thinking to the adults.
    - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
      "Exploiting the proletariat?" Are you fucking kidding me? You think it's not exploitation to have to work without being paid? Are you fucking kidding me?

by phillmv 14y ago

davedx 14y ago

I hope your last sentence is meant to suggest technical interns should be paid above minimum wage, rather than that only non-techs should be paid fairly?

nickbarnwell 14y ago
As I understand it he's commenting more on the internships discussed in the article, those in the film/music/publishing industries, that typically go unpaid.
paulgb 14y ago
I think that goes without saying; technical interns are in high enough demand that if you're not paying minimum wage they have options elsewhere.
- Kuiper 14y ago
  Where I am (midwest USA) technical interns are typically paid at least twice minimum wage; offer anything less than 175% minimum wage and engineering students will dismiss you entirely.

__mark__ 14y ago

From what I hear unpaid internships are common for law students as well. It would be interesting to do more research on this, but I suspect unpaid internships happen in any field that has a surplus of workers. The tech industry doesn't have this problem so most internships are paid.

jreeve 14y ago

"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good way to get even better at whatever you are teaching. So when I was the production manager in charge of making a bunch of marketing sites for small insurance agencies, I called up one of the local universities. They were quite happy (after some conversations with their faculty) to send me a student who was getting ready to graduate and who was interested in creating content for the web. I didn't expect the intern to get any actual work done, just to kind of try and work through some of the projects that we were doing. The work that I was giving him was pretty much the same work that the paid staff were getting, and although we actually did end up using elements of his designs he was much slower and had a much smaller skill set than someone I would actually hire. However, after a semester of working with us, his markup, scripting, and associated skills were a lot better. In addition to his own efforts, I spent time structuring his work assignments in ways that built from one topic to the next, and was available to critique his work in ways that he found useful. So, this relationship was mutually beneficial: he is more skilled than he was, has at least some work experience to put down (other than food service), he received course credit (IIRC), and got a picture of what the inside of that kind of agency looks like. For our part, we got a very small amount of marginal work, and for my personal part I improved my own scripting and CSS skills, in addition to simply enjoying working with folks who are learning. Now, if we were just trying to fill a minimally skilled position with someone who was an employee and skim by calling them an "intern" instead of "an exploited worker", that would be different. But I believe it is possible (though perhaps not likely) that unpaid, non-exploitative internship relationships can exist.

j_baker 14y ago
Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?
- 14y ago

j_baker 14y ago

I think it's much simpler than that. I think it's just that businesses like having free labor. It's much cheaper than paying people, isn't it?

eli_gottlieb 14y ago

Narrative? Any company is going to take free labor if they can get away with it. The problem here is the clear contravention of labor laws.

phillmv 14y ago
Yes. But why is this a new situation? What's changed about the economy if this is only now becoming standard practice? Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom? Do we offer unpaid internships because there are just so many people willing to work for free, or do we offer unpaid internships because there are people willing to work for free and everyone else is also doing it? We're only one or two steps away from reverse paid internships, or looking at them as investments. "Seeking executive assistant. Minimum MBA or equivalent post-graduate degree. First one to pony up $20k gets it".
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  It didn't happen over night. We're in a situation where there is little alternative for new graduates. 20 years ago you were special if you went to college, today its just a prereq to not have your resume thrown directly in the trash. Additionally no emphasis is placed on career or skill-learning at college, it's a place to study things that interest you (which I'm all in favor of, but the realities of the world are that the demand for people who know a lot about 16th century literature is low). So we have millions of kids graduating college with no discernable skills, and an industrial economy that is all but dead. Perfect ground for exploitation of these kids who just want to get their foot in the door of some place that has air conditioning and decent medical benefits.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom? Both. That's the way the labor market has always been: a collective-action problem where any one worker can undercut living standards for everyone else in their field whenever supply outnumbers demand. The answer to the problem, traditionally, has been to unionize. We're only one or two steps away from reverse paid internships, or looking at them as investments. "Seeking executive assistant. Minimum MBA or equivalent post-graduate degree. First one to pony up $20k gets it". Which is going to be the point where the Protestant Work Ethic finally breaks down and America's youth goes on strike. I'm looking forward to it.

prostoalex 14y ago

This brings up the question of a value derived from intern's presence. At my first employer out of college non-technical departments hired (unpaid) interns willy-nilly, figuring half of them would turn out to be bozos competent only to run a copy machine or fetch coffee for the team. Since engineering department paid their interns, they always had to work out some project plans and business necessity in order to have the position(s) open for the summer. So kinda obvious that many students did not get a chance to intern, as with paid internships the company was way more frugal and selective.

jlarocco 14y ago

Internships aren't for making money, they're for gaining experience. Getting paid for them is nice, but the experience is the important part. For some companies having to pay interns would just mean they wouldn't offer internships at all. The reason interns are paid less (or not at all) is that there are lower expectations for interns and other staff usually has to take time to mentor them or check their work. Maybe not the best example, but if a new paid employee says, "No, I've never used source control, what's that about?" it's a big problem. If an intern says it, you explain it and move on.

eli_gottlieb 14y ago
Maybe not the best example, but if a new paid employee says, "No, I've never used source control, what's that about?" it's a big problem. If an intern says it, you explain it and move on. And thus it came to pass that the unpaid internship replaced the entry-level job. I know there's no point in pleading with an economically rational capitalist like yourself, but stop exploiting the proletariat, or one of these days we won't even walk into your damned office.
- jlarocco 14y ago
  "... one of these days we won't even walk into your damned office." If you don't think you're being treated fair, that's exactly what you should do. Duh.
- pcopley 14y ago
  This is honest to god one of the stupidest comments I've ever read anywhere. "Exploiting the proletariat?" Are you fucking kidding me? I got a half semester worth of college credit for various internships and wouldn't have my current job (or subsequently my car or home) had I not had it. Go back to Mother Russia and leave the thinking to the adults.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    "Exploiting the proletariat?" Are you fucking kidding me? You think it's not exploitation to have to work without being paid? Are you fucking kidding me?