5 ms·

We're all about making the world Safe these days. If we can criminalize people saying mean things about minority groups, we should be able to stop lenders (and

We're all about making the world Safe these days. If we can criminalize people saying mean things about minority groups, we should be able to stop lenders (and casinos...) from financially-exploiting the minority group of irresponsible debtors. We have to save all people from the consequences of their own decisions in the name of safety. Klarna is nobody's first option and for bad debtors is more predatory than even my worst card. Late fees are charged per transaction. If you go on a buying spree and are late with your payments, you get the financial fucking of a lifetime in a mere matter of months. It's like having 12 credit cards and missing payments on all of them. The individual late fee is lower than a credit card, but they make up for it by driving reckless purchasing.

ToucanLoucan 3y ago
It's wild to me that you went from: > We have to save all people from the consequences of their own decisions in the name of safety. To then go on to explain why Klarna is problematic: > Klarna is nobody's first option and for bad debtors is more predatory than even my worst card. Late fees are charged per transaction. If you go on a buying spree and are late with your payments, you get the financial fucking of a lifetime in a mere matter of months. It's like having 12 credit cards and missing payments on all of them. > The individual late fee is lower than a credit card, but they make up for it by driving reckless purchasing. The "their own decisions" in your statement there is incredibly load bearing. Is it their decision? If you take someone with a blend of neurodivergence or even just lack of experience or education in financing, and present to them a way to get a thing they really want, today, with the click of a button, is that their decision? Does how informed they are about that decision, its ramifications, it's consequences matter? If people received a broad and sensible financial education as part of K-12, I might agree with you, but they don't, at least not universally. I didn't know shit about credit cards when I turned old enough to apply for one, apart from "you had to pay it back," and "it's not free money," which like, no shit. Didn't stop me from filling it right up and ruining my credit score during college. I didn't know a fucking thing about interest, or how to read the financial statements, how one $2,000 laptop would end up costing me close to $5,500 later on. And that's a credit card, which is at least some work to get. A Klarna financing arrangement doesn't take shit. This kind of argument is so frustrating because it's always opposed by the same sort of person for whom the current setup works well, and it's like, hey man, that's great. Good for you. Look at all your agency, I'm proud of you for making all the right choices. But what about everyone else who didn't? Is everyone who's not as savvy as you deserving of a financial ass-fucking because they never got taught how interest works?
- kristofferR 3y ago
  > how one $2,000 laptop would end up costing me close to $5,500 later on. > And that's a credit card, which is at least some work to get. A Klarna financing arrangement doesn't take shit. Eh, I don't think that is correct. Klarna US charges up to a 25% late fee before the debt is sent over to debt collectors, it doesn't accrue AFAIK. I'm pretty sure they do standard credit checks too. > Look at all your agency, I'm proud of you for making all the right choices. But what about everyone else who didn't? Well, this is a hard question. I don't believe in banning things that might be harmful if misused (and rewarding if used properly), regardless if it's alcohol or credit. I do however believe good education is incredibly important to avoid issues.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    > Eh, I don't think that is correct. Klarna US charges up to a 25% late fee before the debt is sent over to debt collectors, it doesn't accrue AFAIK. I'm pretty sure they do standard credit checks too. I'm talking about a credit card. I am old: there was no Klarna when I came up, and thank fuck, I did a good enough job screwing myself over financially without shit like that at my fingertips. > Well, this is a hard question. I don't believe in banning things that might be harmful if misused (and rewarding if used properly), regardless if it's alcohol or credit. I do however believe good education is incredibly important to avoid issues. I mean that's the thing: at least a credit card is, maybe not hard, but a nonzero amount of work to get. And they confer some benefits: It raises your overall borrowing power, which makes your credit score go up; there are usually some benefits or others attached, things like cash back, or points rewards systems; they're damn handy for life's little emergencies where you need a sizable hunk of money right now, etc. In contrast, there is no benefit to a BNPL arrangement apart from getting the thing sooner, and, those arrangements are going to be the most attractive to the people who are most likely to live in financial precarity; if you didn't, you'd just buy the thing, whatever it might be, with cash or credit. They are marketed exactly to the people they are most likely to fuck over. And I refuse to believe that's an accident. I don't think we should or even can ban everything that can be harmful if misused. I just think it's advantageous as a society, even a free market society, to ban things that are blatantly exploitative of more vulnerable people, that otherwise confer little to no benefits to the larger society. Were I dictator for a day, I wouldn't ban credit. I would ban exploitative, predatory credit models, and mandate proper education on how to make use of non-predatory (well, less predatory?) credit models.
robocat 3y ago
> We're all about making the world Safe these days. There's a cost to that. I find nannying by companies or the government to be incredibly insulting. Personally I believe trying to protect people from themselves is harmful - you can't win that game.

ToucanLoucan 3y ago

It's wild to me that you went from: > We have to save all people from the consequences of their own decisions in the name of safety. To then go on to explain why Klarna is problematic: > Klarna is nobody's first option and for bad debtors is more predatory than even my worst card. Late fees are charged per transaction. If you go on a buying spree and are late with your payments, you get the financial fucking of a lifetime in a mere matter of months. It's like having 12 credit cards and missing payments on all of them. > The individual late fee is lower than a credit card, but they make up for it by driving reckless purchasing. The "their own decisions" in your statement there is incredibly load bearing. Is it their decision? If you take someone with a blend of neurodivergence or even just lack of experience or education in financing, and present to them a way to get a thing they really want, today, with the click of a button, is that their decision? Does how informed they are about that decision, its ramifications, it's consequences matter? If people received a broad and sensible financial education as part of K-12, I might agree with you, but they don't, at least not universally. I didn't know shit about credit cards when I turned old enough to apply for one, apart from "you had to pay it back," and "it's not free money," which like, no shit. Didn't stop me from filling it right up and ruining my credit score during college. I didn't know a fucking thing about interest, or how to read the financial statements, how one $2,000 laptop would end up costing me close to $5,500 later on. And that's a credit card, which is at least some work to get. A Klarna financing arrangement doesn't take shit. This kind of argument is so frustrating because it's always opposed by the same sort of person for whom the current setup works well, and it's like, hey man, that's great. Good for you. Look at all your agency, I'm proud of you for making all the right choices. But what about everyone else who didn't? Is everyone who's not as savvy as you deserving of a financial ass-fucking because they never got taught how interest works?

kristofferR 3y ago
> how one $2,000 laptop would end up costing me close to $5,500 later on. > And that's a credit card, which is at least some work to get. A Klarna financing arrangement doesn't take shit. Eh, I don't think that is correct. Klarna US charges up to a 25% late fee before the debt is sent over to debt collectors, it doesn't accrue AFAIK. I'm pretty sure they do standard credit checks too. > Look at all your agency, I'm proud of you for making all the right choices. But what about everyone else who didn't? Well, this is a hard question. I don't believe in banning things that might be harmful if misused (and rewarding if used properly), regardless if it's alcohol or credit. I do however believe good education is incredibly important to avoid issues.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  > Eh, I don't think that is correct. Klarna US charges up to a 25% late fee before the debt is sent over to debt collectors, it doesn't accrue AFAIK. I'm pretty sure they do standard credit checks too. I'm talking about a credit card. I am old: there was no Klarna when I came up, and thank fuck, I did a good enough job screwing myself over financially without shit like that at my fingertips. > Well, this is a hard question. I don't believe in banning things that might be harmful if misused (and rewarding if used properly), regardless if it's alcohol or credit. I do however believe good education is incredibly important to avoid issues. I mean that's the thing: at least a credit card is, maybe not hard, but a nonzero amount of work to get. And they confer some benefits: It raises your overall borrowing power, which makes your credit score go up; there are usually some benefits or others attached, things like cash back, or points rewards systems; they're damn handy for life's little emergencies where you need a sizable hunk of money right now, etc. In contrast, there is no benefit to a BNPL arrangement apart from getting the thing sooner, and, those arrangements are going to be the most attractive to the people who are most likely to live in financial precarity; if you didn't, you'd just buy the thing, whatever it might be, with cash or credit. They are marketed exactly to the people they are most likely to fuck over. And I refuse to believe that's an accident. I don't think we should or even can ban everything that can be harmful if misused. I just think it's advantageous as a society, even a free market society, to ban things that are blatantly exploitative of more vulnerable people, that otherwise confer little to no benefits to the larger society. Were I dictator for a day, I wouldn't ban credit. I would ban exploitative, predatory credit models, and mandate proper education on how to make use of non-predatory (well, less predatory?) credit models.

robocat 3y ago

> We're all about making the world Safe these days. There's a cost to that. I find nannying by companies or the government to be incredibly insulting. Personally I believe trying to protect people from themselves is harmful - you can't win that game.