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So if the bankers started wearing hoodies they'll become Meritocratic? Portraying 'not wearing a suit' as challenging the status quo is a bit of an exaggeratio

So if the bankers started wearing hoodies they'll become Meritocratic? Portraying 'not wearing a suit' as challenging the status quo is a bit of an exaggeration. Maybe Gandhi challenged the status quo with his choice of outfit, but a billionaire turning up to a meeting in a suit is hardly sticking it to the man. I think it works both ways incidentally- if the banker is coming to your place of work, and you all wear hoodies and shorts, he should make an effort to dress casually too.

Duff 14y ago
A banker would never wear a hoodie to work because that just isn't something that you do. Banking by its nature is a profession based on who you know, where you went to school, and conforming to whatever social norms rule the day. In 1910, that meant you wore a topcoat and hat with a pocketwatch; 1960, it meant a double breasted suit and fedora; in 2012, a fancy single breasted suit with tie. Wearing casual clothing to these sorts of meetings sends a clear signal -- "Fuck you, I'm the guy with the power here." Zuckerberg can do this because in reality, what's the downside to him? If Facebook crashes and burns completely, he'll be a billionaire before age 30 who "lost it all" with just a couple hundred million in the bank.
- muhfuhkuh 14y ago
  Injecting formality into a construction site I can see: Steel-toed boots prevent smashed feet, hard hats stop brain damage, tool belts keep the floor/ground clear from obstacles. What does a suit confer other than "you have to wear this because you do"? What are they, five years old?
  - Duff 14y ago
    People respect symbols of authority and perceive you as a bigshot. I wear a suit for work when I meet with the various luminaries that I need to deal with (maybe 2-3 times a month). You get more respect. Waitresses are more attentive, and people listen to you more.
    - gsharm 14y ago
      It's interesting you say this. I've been experimenting with/without suits, on and off at my current place of work (an investment bank front office). What I've noticed is this: 1) If you're careful, you can get away with wearing jeans and trainers (I often wear black 501s with nike low nike cross trainers, and various casual shirts - no one really notices/cares, especially if you're in software). 2) Suits and neat shirt/trousers tend to be the "default" and perhaps signal safety/predictability more than commanding respect (which doesn't make sense since everyone wears suits around here, and everyone doesn't command everyone, so it's a shallow heuristic to use when making quick calls on people - I know some dumb people who wear suits, and smart ones who don't). 3) I've incidentally worn very casual stuff (jeans, no suit) for interviews and then actually worn suit/tie/etc on the job later, i.e. more out of curiosity/wanting to, than obedience. I do think in some ways they can be nicer to wear. If you go more into studying design concepts, you start seeing some good elements in play within the standard template of what constitutes a suit (shirt, blazer, tie, boots, cufflinks, etc). Is there a better alternative? Not sure - I loved Steve Job's outfit too, though. Imagine the Barrack Obama whitehouse photo with him in a hoodie. It wouldn't be unthinkable for him to do this, but I'm not sure it would communicate the right message to the general public (again, perhaps it's about projecting the idea of safety, stability, predictability, etc). In that sense, suits are a good communication facilitator. A lot of jackasses wear suits, sure, but a lot of jackasses use iPhones, for example too. It doesn't mean they're a bad thing. The bigger problem perhaps with wearing a suit is that there are so many people wearing them now, many of them doing it because other people do it, rather than because they have some pure conviction to do so, that it has become a "red ocean" strategy, which naturally goes against the flow of innovation.
      - Duff 14y ago
        I don't really see the big deal about suits. I look good in them, and would wear them more but for the cost of acquiring and maintaining them. Many folks, particularly in IT, dress like muppets. We have one guy who routinely wears track suits in the office, for example. It doesn't give off a good impression.
mbesto 14y ago
So if the bankers started wearing hoodies they'll become Meritocratic? No, but the point is a Meritocrat doesn't need image to portray his worth. The ideals of both are arguably opposites of each other: Meritocracy - intelligence, credentials, education Bureaucracy - authority, delegation, judgement (meaning, those who display the greatest abilities in those areas are delegated to be responsible for governing others) It's very easy to show bureaucratic abilities by use of imagery, symbols, and artifacts. Meritocracy can't be bought. In the end, it depends on what you, as an individual, value.
Bud 14y ago
Maybe Gandhi challenged the status quo with his choice of outfit, but a billionaire turning up to a meeting in a suit is hardly sticking it to the man. What if the billionaire forces the bankers to take 1/3 of their usual cut? Is that sticking it to the man? I say it is.

Duff 14y ago

A banker would never wear a hoodie to work because that just isn't something that you do. Banking by its nature is a profession based on who you know, where you went to school, and conforming to whatever social norms rule the day. In 1910, that meant you wore a topcoat and hat with a pocketwatch; 1960, it meant a double breasted suit and fedora; in 2012, a fancy single breasted suit with tie. Wearing casual clothing to these sorts of meetings sends a clear signal -- "Fuck you, I'm the guy with the power here." Zuckerberg can do this because in reality, what's the downside to him? If Facebook crashes and burns completely, he'll be a billionaire before age 30 who "lost it all" with just a couple hundred million in the bank.

muhfuhkuh 14y ago
Injecting formality into a construction site I can see: Steel-toed boots prevent smashed feet, hard hats stop brain damage, tool belts keep the floor/ground clear from obstacles. What does a suit confer other than "you have to wear this because you do"? What are they, five years old?
- Duff 14y ago
  People respect symbols of authority and perceive you as a bigshot. I wear a suit for work when I meet with the various luminaries that I need to deal with (maybe 2-3 times a month). You get more respect. Waitresses are more attentive, and people listen to you more.
  - gsharm 14y ago
    It's interesting you say this. I've been experimenting with/without suits, on and off at my current place of work (an investment bank front office). What I've noticed is this: 1) If you're careful, you can get away with wearing jeans and trainers (I often wear black 501s with nike low nike cross trainers, and various casual shirts - no one really notices/cares, especially if you're in software). 2) Suits and neat shirt/trousers tend to be the "default" and perhaps signal safety/predictability more than commanding respect (which doesn't make sense since everyone wears suits around here, and everyone doesn't command everyone, so it's a shallow heuristic to use when making quick calls on people - I know some dumb people who wear suits, and smart ones who don't). 3) I've incidentally worn very casual stuff (jeans, no suit) for interviews and then actually worn suit/tie/etc on the job later, i.e. more out of curiosity/wanting to, than obedience. I do think in some ways they can be nicer to wear. If you go more into studying design concepts, you start seeing some good elements in play within the standard template of what constitutes a suit (shirt, blazer, tie, boots, cufflinks, etc). Is there a better alternative? Not sure - I loved Steve Job's outfit too, though. Imagine the Barrack Obama whitehouse photo with him in a hoodie. It wouldn't be unthinkable for him to do this, but I'm not sure it would communicate the right message to the general public (again, perhaps it's about projecting the idea of safety, stability, predictability, etc). In that sense, suits are a good communication facilitator. A lot of jackasses wear suits, sure, but a lot of jackasses use iPhones, for example too. It doesn't mean they're a bad thing. The bigger problem perhaps with wearing a suit is that there are so many people wearing them now, many of them doing it because other people do it, rather than because they have some pure conviction to do so, that it has become a "red ocean" strategy, which naturally goes against the flow of innovation.
    - Duff 14y ago
      I don't really see the big deal about suits. I look good in them, and would wear them more but for the cost of acquiring and maintaining them. Many folks, particularly in IT, dress like muppets. We have one guy who routinely wears track suits in the office, for example. It doesn't give off a good impression.

mbesto 14y ago

So if the bankers started wearing hoodies they'll become Meritocratic? No, but the point is a Meritocrat doesn't need image to portray his worth. The ideals of both are arguably opposites of each other: Meritocracy - intelligence, credentials, education Bureaucracy - authority, delegation, judgement (meaning, those who display the greatest abilities in those areas are delegated to be responsible for governing others) It's very easy to show bureaucratic abilities by use of imagery, symbols, and artifacts. Meritocracy can't be bought. In the end, it depends on what you, as an individual, value.

Bud 14y ago

Maybe Gandhi challenged the status quo with his choice of outfit, but a billionaire turning up to a meeting in a suit is hardly sticking it to the man. What if the billionaire forces the bankers to take 1/3 of their usual cut? Is that sticking it to the man? I say it is.