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I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I think he's being rude and arrogant. Yes, he's in a position of power, and could turn up to his meetings wear

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I think he's being rude and arrogant. Yes, he's in a position of power, and could turn up to his meetings wearing only a cunningly positioned silk scarf, and it would have no effect on the banks' willingness to earn lots of money from overseeing the Facebook IPO. But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. I realize dress codes etc are a bit different over there in the US, but at work here I normally dress pretty casually. However, if someone's coming in for interview, I will wear a suit. As I know the candidate's going to turn up in a suit, and it will make them feel uncomfortable if I'm interviewing them in shorts and a t-shirt. The person in the position of power has a moral obligation not to make everyone else feel uncomfortable or stupid. A great example of this is Queen Victoria drinking from her finger-bowl after one of her guests did - in order to save them from any embarassment or discomfort (http://www.bobssermons.com/sermons/archive/030831.htm http://www.bobssermons.com/sermons/archive/030831.htm). And yes, bankers have acted arrogantly, and swanned around like they own the place too long. But its hardly a great example to set to just start doing the same yourself as soon as the balance of power tilts.

mbesto 14y ago
I can't disagree more. But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. Say's who? The greatest minds of our day challenge status quo's, not accept them. "Dress" has historically been a badge of status, which has historically been inherited. I think the big "F U" that Mark is trying to portray (much like Jobs) is that his meritocracy wins. Bureaucrats wear suits, Meritocrats wear hoodies.
- mcknz 14y ago
  The true test (if all this even matters) will be to see how he carries himself if Facebook ever needs investor money for its survival.
- tomgallard 14y ago
  So if the bankers started wearing hoodies they'll become Meritocratic? Portraying 'not wearing a suit' as challenging the status quo is a bit of an exaggeration. Maybe Gandhi challenged the status quo with his choice of outfit, but a billionaire turning up to a meeting in a suit is hardly sticking it to the man. I think it works both ways incidentally- if the banker is coming to your place of work, and you all wear hoodies and shorts, he should make an effort to dress casually too.
  - Duff 14y ago
    A banker would never wear a hoodie to work because that just isn't something that you do. Banking by its nature is a profession based on who you know, where you went to school, and conforming to whatever social norms rule the day. In 1910, that meant you wore a topcoat and hat with a pocketwatch; 1960, it meant a double breasted suit and fedora; in 2012, a fancy single breasted suit with tie. Wearing casual clothing to these sorts of meetings sends a clear signal -- "Fuck you, I'm the guy with the power here." Zuckerberg can do this because in reality, what's the downside to him? If Facebook crashes and burns completely, he'll be a billionaire before age 30 who "lost it all" with just a couple hundred million in the bank.
    - muhfuhkuh 14y ago
      Injecting formality into a construction site I can see: Steel-toed boots prevent smashed feet, hard hats stop brain damage, tool belts keep the floor/ground clear from obstacles. What does a suit confer other than "you have to wear this because you do"? What are they, five years old?
      - Duff 14y ago
        People respect symbols of authority and perceive you as a bigshot. I wear a suit for work when I meet with the various luminaries that I need to deal with (maybe 2-3 times a month). You get more respect. Waitresses are more attentive, and people listen to you more.
        14y ago
jakeonthemove 14y ago
True that. When you're in a meeting where the majority of people wear suits and are serious, you'll be considered the dick if you're wearing a hoodie and are grinning like you just won the lottery :-). It doesn't even have to do with business - people can be offended at a personal level, too. Maybe the reason he wore those clothes was different - he feels lucky/confident in them, they were the only thing in his closet at the time or something. Or maybe he just doesn't pay much attention to dressing code (if the clothes are comfortable, why not wear them)...
nollidge 14y ago
> The person in the position of power has a moral obligation not to make everyone else feel uncomfortable or stupid. That's a very interesting point, and I had not considered it from that angle. Not sure if it changes my mind or not, but thanks for the insight.
rhizome 14y ago
But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. Is that so? When has that ever been the case in real life?
bdreadz 14y ago
Once Steve Jobs made it the last 10+ years or so he spent it in a black shirt and jeans. Another point in the article mentions... "I think that he has to realize he's bringing investors in as a new constituency right now, and I think he's got to show them the respect that they deserve because he's asking them for their money." However, this isn't some internet startup that doesn't have revenue yet. This is a company that's making buckets of money already. So in this case I think they really need to dance to his tune and they are going to take the lowered rate because he can go down the street and another bank is going to be jumping at the deal. Are investment bankers really upset? Or are these just the reporters saying these things? Strange.
theorique 14y ago
But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. Wearing casual dress != being a dick.
chc 14y ago
If you are literally offended by somebody wearing sensible clothes to the point where you would call them "rude" on that basis alone, I would posit that we're actually discussing your mental state, not anything wrong with their clothing per se. Yes, you might wear a suit when you want to kiss up to someone. But being gravely offended by somebody not actively kissing up to you is much less becoming of a mature adult than the act of not wearing a suit. The clothes do not hurt you, they do not deprive you of anything — the only problem is that they don't flatter you. But expecting flattery is uncouth, even if you are accustomed to being flattered.
kemiller 14y ago
You think the bankers generally follow that rule?
irahul 14y ago
> I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I think he's being rude and arrogant. Sure. Wearing what he feels like wearing, something which isn't indecent and what he has been wearing on a regular basis for a long, long time is being rude and arrogant. /s
alttag 14y ago
I think that's an interesting insight, and in general I agree with you. However, I can't help but be amused at the thought of some stuffy prick having his nose tweaked by a billionaire in a hoodie. More particularly, your comment reminded me of Dilbert [1] re abuse of power, when Wally asks, "What might be the other reasons to have power?" 1: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-08-04/ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-08-04/
surrealize 14y ago
But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. In general, that's a great idea and I agree. But Wall Street types mostly don't believe in that responsibility. So it's nice to see someone turn the tables on them.
mikeash 14y ago
I don't understand how a person can be a dick for how they dress. The concept does not make sense to me. It doesn't seem theoretically possible.
- heelhook 14y ago
  You have much to learn my friend, much. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YQ1CPTNsj3A/TZ8SRBRCUNI/AAAAAAAABso/4mKDIMIHeWI/s1600/090103DickMan.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YQ1CPTNsj3A/TZ8SRBRCUNI/AAAAAAAABs...
- sopooneo 14y ago
  What about the way they hold their fingers?
  - mikeash 14y ago
    Seems like it needs intent, not just a particular shape. If you give everybody the finger because you mean to be offensive, that's offensive. But if you do it because you just find it more comfortable somehow, nobody should care (although I'm sure they will).

mbesto 14y ago

I can't disagree more. But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. Say's who? The greatest minds of our day challenge status quo's, not accept them. "Dress" has historically been a badge of status, which has historically been inherited. I think the big "F U" that Mark is trying to portray (much like Jobs) is that his meritocracy wins. Bureaucrats wear suits, Meritocrats wear hoodies.

mcknz 14y ago
The true test (if all this even matters) will be to see how he carries himself if Facebook ever needs investor money for its survival.
tomgallard 14y ago
So if the bankers started wearing hoodies they'll become Meritocratic? Portraying 'not wearing a suit' as challenging the status quo is a bit of an exaggeration. Maybe Gandhi challenged the status quo with his choice of outfit, but a billionaire turning up to a meeting in a suit is hardly sticking it to the man. I think it works both ways incidentally- if the banker is coming to your place of work, and you all wear hoodies and shorts, he should make an effort to dress casually too.
- Duff 14y ago
  A banker would never wear a hoodie to work because that just isn't something that you do. Banking by its nature is a profession based on who you know, where you went to school, and conforming to whatever social norms rule the day. In 1910, that meant you wore a topcoat and hat with a pocketwatch; 1960, it meant a double breasted suit and fedora; in 2012, a fancy single breasted suit with tie. Wearing casual clothing to these sorts of meetings sends a clear signal -- "Fuck you, I'm the guy with the power here." Zuckerberg can do this because in reality, what's the downside to him? If Facebook crashes and burns completely, he'll be a billionaire before age 30 who "lost it all" with just a couple hundred million in the bank.
  - muhfuhkuh 14y ago
    Injecting formality into a construction site I can see: Steel-toed boots prevent smashed feet, hard hats stop brain damage, tool belts keep the floor/ground clear from obstacles. What does a suit confer other than "you have to wear this because you do"? What are they, five years old?
    - Duff 14y ago
      People respect symbols of authority and perceive you as a bigshot. I wear a suit for work when I meet with the various luminaries that I need to deal with (maybe 2-3 times a month). You get more respect. Waitresses are more attentive, and people listen to you more.
      - 14y ago

jakeonthemove 14y ago

True that. When you're in a meeting where the majority of people wear suits and are serious, you'll be considered the dick if you're wearing a hoodie and are grinning like you just won the lottery :-). It doesn't even have to do with business - people can be offended at a personal level, too. Maybe the reason he wore those clothes was different - he feels lucky/confident in them, they were the only thing in his closet at the time or something. Or maybe he just doesn't pay much attention to dressing code (if the clothes are comfortable, why not wear them)...

nollidge 14y ago

> The person in the position of power has a moral obligation not to make everyone else feel uncomfortable or stupid. That's a very interesting point, and I had not considered it from that angle. Not sure if it changes my mind or not, but thanks for the insight.

rhizome 14y ago

But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. Is that so? When has that ever been the case in real life?

bdreadz 14y ago

Once Steve Jobs made it the last 10+ years or so he spent it in a black shirt and jeans. Another point in the article mentions... "I think that he has to realize he's bringing investors in as a new constituency right now, and I think he's got to show them the respect that they deserve because he's asking them for their money." However, this isn't some internet startup that doesn't have revenue yet. This is a company that's making buckets of money already. So in this case I think they really need to dance to his tune and they are going to take the lowered rate because he can go down the street and another bank is going to be jumping at the deal. Are investment bankers really upset? Or are these just the reporters saying these things? Strange.

theorique 14y ago

But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. Wearing casual dress != being a dick.

chc 14y ago

If you are literally offended by somebody wearing sensible clothes to the point where you would call them "rude" on that basis alone, I would posit that we're actually discussing your mental state, not anything wrong with their clothing per se. Yes, you might wear a suit when you want to kiss up to someone. But being gravely offended by somebody not actively kissing up to you is much less becoming of a mature adult than the act of not wearing a suit. The clothes do not hurt you, they do not deprive you of anything — the only problem is that they don't flatter you. But expecting flattery is uncouth, even if you are accustomed to being flattered.

kemiller 14y ago

You think the bankers generally follow that rule?

irahul 14y ago

> I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I think he's being rude and arrogant. Sure. Wearing what he feels like wearing, something which isn't indecent and what he has been wearing on a regular basis for a long, long time is being rude and arrogant. /s

alttag 14y ago

I think that's an interesting insight, and in general I agree with you. However, I can't help but be amused at the thought of some stuffy prick having his nose tweaked by a billionaire in a hoodie. More particularly, your comment reminded me of Dilbert [1] re abuse of power, when Wally asks, "What might be the other reasons to have power?" 1: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-08-04/ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-08-04/

surrealize 14y ago

But when you're in a position of power you also have a responsibility not to be a dick. In general, that's a great idea and I agree. But Wall Street types mostly don't believe in that responsibility. So it's nice to see someone turn the tables on them.

mikeash 14y ago

I don't understand how a person can be a dick for how they dress. The concept does not make sense to me. It doesn't seem theoretically possible.

heelhook 14y ago
You have much to learn my friend, much. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YQ1CPTNsj3A/TZ8SRBRCUNI/AAAAAAAABso/4mKDIMIHeWI/s1600/090103DickMan.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YQ1CPTNsj3A/TZ8SRBRCUNI/AAAAAAAABs...
sopooneo 14y ago
What about the way they hold their fingers?
- mikeash 14y ago
  Seems like it needs intent, not just a particular shape. If you give everybody the finger because you mean to be offensive, that's offensive. But if you do it because you just find it more comfortable somehow, nobody should care (although I'm sure they will).