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I knew a guy who was in charge of approving strikes in iraq. His job was assessing the second order impacts of a strike beyond whether or not it was targeting w

I knew a guy who was in charge of approving strikes in iraq. His job was assessing the second order impacts of a strike beyond whether or not it was targeting what they believed. I'm not saying iraq wasn't a shit show, but for what it's worth, this stuff is very carefully reviewed and is not done quickly.

sschueller 3y ago
Yet the Unites States bombed a Médecins Sans Frontières hospital killing 42 by mistake according to their own non-independent investigation.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  This is tragic but it's noteworthy because it is NOT the norm. Unlike, say, what's going on in Ukraine with frequent missile strikes into arbitrary civilian areas. This is a serious failure of controls that warranted direct attention and the apology of the president. imo this is moreso evidence that the US takes its controls seriously rather than frivolously.
  - ein0p 3y ago
    Both of those things are lies though. Per the British medical journal Lancet, approximately 600000 civilians were killed in Iraq. Per the UN estimates fewer than 11k civilians were killed so far in Ukraine.
    - spywaregorilla 3y ago
      I don't really care enough to get into this, so I won't respond further but that study has largely been debunked. It uses both flawed methodology and appears to have outright fabricated data regarding death certificates. Further, it is grossly misleading to imply that the 600k killed were the result of reckless US military strikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_cas...
      - ein0p 3y ago
        Wikipedia, really? Ok, let’s set that one aside for the moment. What are your thoughts on this here gem from the first Iraq war: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP1OAD9jSaI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP1OAD9jSaI Is that “humane” or “proportional”?
        spywaregorilla 3y ago
        I think this is a very well documented wikipedia link personally. I'm not interested in following your link.
  - foverzar 3y ago
    > This is tragic but it's noteworthy because it is NOT the norm. Unlike, say, what's going on in Ukraine with frequent missile strikes into arbitrary civilian areas. Let's not dismiss the propaganda factor here. No one caring about their livelihood in the west will ever be digging too deep into US/NATO totally-not-war-crimes-just-collateral-shit-happens-you-know, as well as no one will be arguing Russia's case the same way Ukraine's attacks over Belgorod Region and office buildings in Moscow are excused with "this missile/drone was on its way to a military target, but was shot down over civilians heads by air defense". Assange's case is a very illustrative example what happens when something gets loud enough to actually matter and disrupt the image of righteousness.
    - overstay8930 3y ago
      Everyone knows the US and NATO have done horrible shit, but unless you have a child's view of the world it's incredibly obvious that the US and NATO take incredible steps to minimize civilian casualties. Much more than non-NATO aligned military powers. It's good to learn about the past, but it doesn't actually tell you anything about how modern western military operations actually work. You'll always be able to cherry pick random platoons doing heinous shit because humans are still humans. Just because you are from the west does not mean you are better than anyone else.
      - sschueller 3y ago
        Is this how people excuse away the genocide currently being committed by Israel with the support of the United States? The US is the only reason this is still going and children are currently starving to death. As long it's for the greater good its ok right? /s
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > US is the only reason this is still going America is far from the only reason for the War is Gaza. It’s a major contributor to Israel’s war machine, but it’s also one to Palestinian aid.
torstenvl 3y ago
I served as a strike cell attorney in Baghdad during the Daesh fight (Operation Inherent Resolve). Specific criteria are classified, but the U.S. military systematizes the four LOAC principles: military necessity, distinction, proportionality, no unnecessary suffering. Positive identification goes only to the first two principles, and—while I don't know specifics—the DoD's "human in the loop not on the loop" AI philosophy makes me think that AI won't satisfy PID by itself. In addition to that, all munitions targets would have to meet CDE in accordance with CJCSI 3160.01. In my experience, there is typically a CDE expert as well as a lawyer involved in every targeting decision.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  The lawyer bit is fascinating.
- ein0p 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - sebastos 3y ago
    If you critically examine the source that provided you this number and follow the rabbit hole, you will probably learn that it is wildly pessimistic AND not telling you what you think it’s telling you. E.g. these estimates often include estimated casualties from sectarian violence that was merely uncorked by the Iraq war. You are clearly not taking pains to prevent the casual reader from assuming that 600k (already a specious number) were all directly killed at the hands of US soldiers.
    - overstay8930 3y ago
      The people throwing these kinds of numbers around don't actually care about reality, it's not worth engaging them.
      - khokhol 3y ago
        Yep, and they're literally worse than Stalin in this regard. At least he had an appreciation for statistics, and accurate body counts.
salad-tycoon 3y ago
Yes as your comment and lawyers comment below show there was a veneer of “we are war professionals, our war is legal and just” and I was listening to every patriotic song that came out celebrating every bomb. My highschool had some highlights of iraq being bombed to the tune of “let the bodies hit the floor.” At the end of the day war is a racket, the prescence of the lawyer detailing what he did below should only raise everyone’s BS meter to “overload.” I’m not sure if it was a million we killed or 600k or maybe less but the defense of “many of those weren’t us, it’s was subsequent totally unrelated non us involved” is also a very lawyerly statement. Like, we only lit this one tree on fire maaaannn, we didn’t light the whole damn neighborhood! Let us not forget the Wikileaks either as a self purported hacker community. 12 unarmed men gleefully murdered by an Apache helicopter (including 2 ap reporters). [1] Let’s also not forget Madeleine Albright defending the death of 1/2million Iraq children in 1996. When asked by 60 Minutes reporter Lesley Stahl "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?", Albright replied "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it." [2] For what it’s worth, I am a US patriot, I just don’t excuse our BS behavior as I’ve been sold the whole “we are very careful, we have lawyers and 2ndary explosion analysts” line one too many times. The price is always worth it to certain people and industries. I’m not ragging on the lawyer below, I hope he was able to do some good. But it’s all bullshit, from start/middle/end (Afghanistan withdrawal, you should have seen the look on vets faces as they realized every sacrifice, buddy lost, person killed was completely and totally pointless, but don’t worry we have a national suicide call line) 1 https://hackcur.io/collateral-murder-wikileaks-iraq/ https://hackcur.io/collateral-murder-wikileaks-iraq/ 2 https://x.com/theserfstv/status/1506706179178725379?s=46 https://x.com/theserfstv/status/1506706179178725379?s=46
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  We are not saying the war was just. It was not a just war. We are saying the US military, as an organization, takes targeting decisions seriously and slowly.

sschueller 3y ago

Yet the Unites States bombed a Médecins Sans Frontières hospital killing 42 by mistake according to their own non-independent investigation.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
spywaregorilla 3y ago
This is tragic but it's noteworthy because it is NOT the norm. Unlike, say, what's going on in Ukraine with frequent missile strikes into arbitrary civilian areas. This is a serious failure of controls that warranted direct attention and the apology of the president. imo this is moreso evidence that the US takes its controls seriously rather than frivolously.
- ein0p 3y ago
  Both of those things are lies though. Per the British medical journal Lancet, approximately 600000 civilians were killed in Iraq. Per the UN estimates fewer than 11k civilians were killed so far in Ukraine.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    I don't really care enough to get into this, so I won't respond further but that study has largely been debunked. It uses both flawed methodology and appears to have outright fabricated data regarding death certificates. Further, it is grossly misleading to imply that the 600k killed were the result of reckless US military strikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_cas...
    - ein0p 3y ago
      Wikipedia, really? Ok, let’s set that one aside for the moment. What are your thoughts on this here gem from the first Iraq war: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP1OAD9jSaI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP1OAD9jSaI Is that “humane” or “proportional”?
      - spywaregorilla 3y ago
        I think this is a very well documented wikipedia link personally. I'm not interested in following your link.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > This is tragic but it's noteworthy because it is NOT the norm. Unlike, say, what's going on in Ukraine with frequent missile strikes into arbitrary civilian areas. Let's not dismiss the propaganda factor here. No one caring about their livelihood in the west will ever be digging too deep into US/NATO totally-not-war-crimes-just-collateral-shit-happens-you-know, as well as no one will be arguing Russia's case the same way Ukraine's attacks over Belgorod Region and office buildings in Moscow are excused with "this missile/drone was on its way to a military target, but was shot down over civilians heads by air defense". Assange's case is a very illustrative example what happens when something gets loud enough to actually matter and disrupt the image of righteousness.
  - overstay8930 3y ago
    Everyone knows the US and NATO have done horrible shit, but unless you have a child's view of the world it's incredibly obvious that the US and NATO take incredible steps to minimize civilian casualties. Much more than non-NATO aligned military powers. It's good to learn about the past, but it doesn't actually tell you anything about how modern western military operations actually work. You'll always be able to cherry pick random platoons doing heinous shit because humans are still humans. Just because you are from the west does not mean you are better than anyone else.
    - sschueller 3y ago
      Is this how people excuse away the genocide currently being committed by Israel with the support of the United States? The US is the only reason this is still going and children are currently starving to death. As long it's for the greater good its ok right? /s
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > US is the only reason this is still going America is far from the only reason for the War is Gaza. It’s a major contributor to Israel’s war machine, but it’s also one to Palestinian aid.

torstenvl 3y ago

I served as a strike cell attorney in Baghdad during the Daesh fight (Operation Inherent Resolve). Specific criteria are classified, but the U.S. military systematizes the four LOAC principles: military necessity, distinction, proportionality, no unnecessary suffering. Positive identification goes only to the first two principles, and—while I don't know specifics—the DoD's "human in the loop not on the loop" AI philosophy makes me think that AI won't satisfy PID by itself. In addition to that, all munitions targets would have to meet CDE in accordance with CJCSI 3160.01. In my experience, there is typically a CDE expert as well as a lawyer involved in every targeting decision.

spywaregorilla 3y ago
The lawyer bit is fascinating.
ein0p 3y ago
[flagged]
- sebastos 3y ago
  If you critically examine the source that provided you this number and follow the rabbit hole, you will probably learn that it is wildly pessimistic AND not telling you what you think it’s telling you. E.g. these estimates often include estimated casualties from sectarian violence that was merely uncorked by the Iraq war. You are clearly not taking pains to prevent the casual reader from assuming that 600k (already a specious number) were all directly killed at the hands of US soldiers.
  - overstay8930 3y ago
    The people throwing these kinds of numbers around don't actually care about reality, it's not worth engaging them.
    - khokhol 3y ago
      Yep, and they're literally worse than Stalin in this regard. At least he had an appreciation for statistics, and accurate body counts.

salad-tycoon 3y ago

Yes as your comment and lawyers comment below show there was a veneer of “we are war professionals, our war is legal and just” and I was listening to every patriotic song that came out celebrating every bomb. My highschool had some highlights of iraq being bombed to the tune of “let the bodies hit the floor.” At the end of the day war is a racket, the prescence of the lawyer detailing what he did below should only raise everyone’s BS meter to “overload.” I’m not sure if it was a million we killed or 600k or maybe less but the defense of “many of those weren’t us, it’s was subsequent totally unrelated non us involved” is also a very lawyerly statement. Like, we only lit this one tree on fire maaaannn, we didn’t light the whole damn neighborhood! Let us not forget the Wikileaks either as a self purported hacker community. 12 unarmed men gleefully murdered by an Apache helicopter (including 2 ap reporters). [1] Let’s also not forget Madeleine Albright defending the death of 1/2million Iraq children in 1996. When asked by 60 Minutes reporter Lesley Stahl "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?", Albright replied "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it." [2] For what it’s worth, I am a US patriot, I just don’t excuse our BS behavior as I’ve been sold the whole “we are very careful, we have lawyers and 2ndary explosion analysts” line one too many times. The price is always worth it to certain people and industries. I’m not ragging on the lawyer below, I hope he was able to do some good. But it’s all bullshit, from start/middle/end (Afghanistan withdrawal, you should have seen the look on vets faces as they realized every sacrifice, buddy lost, person killed was completely and totally pointless, but don’t worry we have a national suicide call line) 1 https://hackcur.io/collateral-murder-wikileaks-iraq/ https://hackcur.io/collateral-murder-wikileaks-iraq/ 2 https://x.com/theserfstv/status/1506706179178725379?s=46 https://x.com/theserfstv/status/1506706179178725379?s=46

spywaregorilla 3y ago
We are not saying the war was just. It was not a just war. We are saying the US military, as an organization, takes targeting decisions seriously and slowly.