7 ms·

I find it interesting people are pretty hardcore that meters is a superior measure based on its lack of human foot reference, but still hold onto Celsius. Basin

I find it interesting people are pretty hardcore that meters is a superior measure based on its lack of human foot reference, but still hold onto Celsius. Basing a unit on the temperatures water phase changes at 1atm is as barbaric and anthropomorphic. That’s why I only measure with a zero based on actually zero. Negative heat?? Wtf.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Your argument doesn't make that much sense to me when Kelvins, while 0=absolute 0, have the same magnitude as a degree Celsius. I.e. they're still based on water phase changes at 1 atm.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  The language defining the Celsius unit originally was: "The arbitrary points which coincide on the two scales are 0° and 100°" Those distances are arbitrary, and not specifically moored on the anchors of 0 and 100. Kelvin units are moored however on a fundamental anchor of zero heat energy, with arbitrary sized units above. It happens they were later calibrated to the Boltzmann constant, which itself is anchored on the triple point of water. None of this is based on human experience.
  - kragen 3y ago
    it's water because the humans are mostly made of water. rumor has it that on 𐍨𐍓𐍰𐍚𐍠 they use the triple point of what the humans call 'phosphoric acid' (it's a toasty place) and in 𓃾𓂃𓂌𓀩 they use the triple point of the ammonia-methane eutectic
    - nuancebydefault 3y ago
      It's funny that I can't even accomplish an emoticon in these comments while some people manage to draw complete scenes or algebraic formulas interleaved with the text. I must admit that, unlike a lot of HN'ers, I'm using a virtual keyboard on a heldheld device to type comments; I never took the effort of looking up how it is done though it must have to do with extended char sets.
      - kragen 3y ago
        most emoji are banned, as are nonstandard space symbols like thin space and some other things. emoticons (things like :-) and XD) are allowed. generally alphabetic characters and digits are allowed, and some other things, but i think unknown unicode is forbidden by default. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23440551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23440551 has some investigation and results which are probably still accurate i do most of my algebraic formulas with the compose key and a custom compose map mostly written by mark shoulson https://github.com/kragen/xcompose https://github.com/kragen/xcompose for the above, after a false start picking random unicode characters, i realized that maybe i shouldn't use a modern language because someone who actually uses the language might feel like i was calling them an extraterrestrial, so i switched to googling archaic scripts. i pasted part of the old permic table from wikipedia >>> s = '''𐍐‎ 𐍑‎ 𐍒‎ 𐍓‎ 𐍔‎ 𐍕‎ 𐍖‎ 𐍗‎ 𐍘‎ 𐍙‎ 𐍚‎ 𐍛‎ 𐍜‎ 𐍝‎ 𐍞‎ 𐍟‎ ... U+1036x 𐍠‎ 𐍡‎ 𐍢‎ 𐍣‎ 𐍤‎ 𐍥‎ 𐍦‎ 𐍧‎ 𐍨‎ 𐍩‎ 𐍪‎ 𐍫‎ 𐍬‎ 𐍭‎ 𐍮‎ 𐍯‎ ... U+1037x 𐍰‎ 𐍱‎ 𐍲‎ 𐍳‎ 𐍴‎ 𐍵‎''' >>> print(''.join(c for c in s if ord(c) >= 0x10350)) 𐍐𐍑𐍒𐍓𐍔𐍕𐍖𐍗𐍘𐍙𐍚𐍛𐍜𐍝𐍞𐍟𐍠𐍡𐍢𐍣𐍤𐍥𐍦𐍧𐍨𐍩𐍪𐍫𐍬𐍭𐍮𐍯𐍰𐍱𐍲𐍳𐍴𐍵 >>> len(''.join(c for c in s if ord(c) >= 0x10350)) 38 >>> permic = (''.join(c for c in s if ord(c) >= 0x10350)) >>> ''.join(random.choice(permic) for i in range(5)) '𐍨𐍓𐍰𐍚𐍠' and then i tried out the hieroglyphs range >>> print(''.join(chr(i) for i in range(0x13000, 0x14000))) 𓀀𓀁𓀂𓀃𓀄𓀅𓀆𓀇𓀈𓀉𓀊𓀋𓀌𓀍𓀎𓀏𓀐𓀑𓀒𓀓𓀔𓀕𓀖𓀗𓀘𓀙𓀚𓀛𓀜𓀝𓀞𓀟𓀠𓀡𓀢𓀣𓀤𓀥𓀦𓀧𓀨𓀩𓀪𓀫𓀬𓀭... 𓿦𓿧𓿨𓿩𓿪𓿫𓿬𓿭𓿮𓿯𓿰𓿱𓿲𓿳𓿴𓿵𓿶𓿷𓿸𓿹𓿺𓿻𓿼𓿽𓿾𓿿 but realized that most of them were unassigned, at least in my font and probably in the current unicode standard (in case someone discovers a new hieroglyph), so i just did this >>> hiero = (''.join(chr(i) for i in range(0x13000, 0x13100))) >>> ''.join(random.choice(hiero) for i in range(4)) '𓃾𓂃𓂌𓀩' you can do all this in python in termux on your phone too (you'll probably have to install it from f-droid) but it's a bit clumsier it's funny how this conversation has swung from the extreme of universal constants of the universe to the opposite extreme of completely arbitrary and historically contingent things like which ideograms (themselves completely arbitrary) are prevented from being posted by implementation bugs in hacker news
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      That’s why we picked water, but water exists everywhere. Earth, the kings foot, 1atm, are specific to the human experience.
      - kragen 3y ago
        most of the non-dark-matter non-dark-energy mass of the universe finds itself in conditions that prevent the existence of water: black holes, degenerate-matter stars, conventional plasma stars, things like that. almost all of the rest is hydrogen and helium, so water exists there in the same sense that uranium exists here. but, although almost all of the universe is cold enough to freeze hydrogen, its vapor pressure is high enough at the cbr that most of it is vapor, so basically none of that is solid. solid objects do have a substantial amount of water in them, although if our solar system is typical, many of them don't but sure, if it turns out that there are electron-degenerate-gas vortex intelligences on the surface of white-dwarf stars, they could very likely work out some way to launch robotic probes out of the star into places where water could exist, so that they could measure its triple point. and the folks on 𐍨𐍓𐍰𐍚𐍠 use trace amounts of water in their biology (it's a reasonably powerful base) and have isolated it in liquid form in their cryogenic laboratories. it's accessible in a way that the artifact kilogram and artifact meter and the circumference of the earth aren't
    - cyberax 3y ago
      > triple point of the ammonia-methane eutectic Which is a shame that the temperature scale is still anchored in that arbitrary mix, picked by a lazy apprentice. It's also historically base-10, not like the modern systematic base-8 units. (Can ammonia actually alloy with methane? Their crystalline lattices don't seem to be compatible, and they don't react together.)
      - kragen 3y ago
        i don't actually know. however, the same considerations would suggest that methane clathrates in water are impossible, which turns out not to be true. methane freezes at 90 kelvin, so if there's a eutectic, it would be lower than that.
        cyberax 3y ago
        Clathrates are different, they are not eutectics. If you try to freeze them, they separate into methane gas and water ice. Metals can alloy with each other because the shared electron layer "glues" small imperfections in crystals where different metals meet. Can frozen ammonia behave similarly? Liquid ammonia can solvate free electrons, so perhaps frozen ammonia also can? It'd be interesting to actually try experiments with frozen ammonia.
        kragen 3y ago
        that's a fascinating idea! frozen electrides! it's a lot freezier than methane (195 kelvin, a difference large enough to make a methane eutectic much less likely) to the point where you might even be able to freeze it with convenient and safe dry ice rather than liquid nitrogen. and, i don't know, maybe if dry ice by itself won't do the trick, maybe dry ice mixed with liquid ammonia will. trying to buy anhydrous ammonia around here gets you put on a list, though, so i'm gonna opt out of this one there are a lot of solvated ionic eutectics with atmospheric-pressure water ice, despite the absence of metallic bonding
kragen 3y ago
guilty as charged. it gets worse, though: meters are originally based on the size of the earth, but humboldt's expedition (?) fucked up the measurement and now we're stuck with a meter that's significantly too short, nominally defined as the distance light travels in 9192631770/299792458 cycles of the hyperfine transition radiation frequency of cesium-133. you probably think this is a goddamned joke but it's not i ask you, what the fuck kind of number is 9192631770? is that a hexadecimal encoding of linus torvalds's first child's birthdate? no, it's just a random fucking number derived from the sumerian base 60 numbering system and the average rotational speed of the earth in the 20th century. the kelvin has a similarly filthy history; it's when the thermal energy changes by 1.380649e-23 joules, because that makes the triple point of water come out to 273.16 kelvins. so now we have to preserve those numbers for all eternity like they're the fucking holy writ of the priestesses at delphi in order to interpret scientific papers from the 19th and 20th century. (and don't get me started on the motherfucking calendar. jesus jumping blue christ.) you will be pleased to learn about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_units (which i used in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/2017-sap-allocation.html https://dercuano.github.io/notes/2017-sap-allocation.html because i'm uncreative) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal#Systematic_Dozenal_Nomenclature_(SDN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal#Systematic_Dozenal_...
- lupusreal 3y ago
  It all gets the job done, no reason to let any of it bother you.
- nuancebydefault 3y ago
  You probably know all this, but it is fun to write. Units are parts of models. Used Models were the best in class, at the time they were derived or adopted. Models are wrong and get replaced by less wrong models over time. That said I think meters and Kelvins are doing their job just fine even for use with rocket science. I'm glad I learned the SI units at school, they reduced the number of constants a lot in physical formulas.
  - kragen 3y ago
thfuran 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Quantum and their oppositionally defiant exceptions.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

Your argument doesn't make that much sense to me when Kelvins, while 0=absolute 0, have the same magnitude as a degree Celsius. I.e. they're still based on water phase changes at 1 atm.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
The language defining the Celsius unit originally was: "The arbitrary points which coincide on the two scales are 0° and 100°" Those distances are arbitrary, and not specifically moored on the anchors of 0 and 100. Kelvin units are moored however on a fundamental anchor of zero heat energy, with arbitrary sized units above. It happens they were later calibrated to the Boltzmann constant, which itself is anchored on the triple point of water. None of this is based on human experience.
- kragen 3y ago
  it's water because the humans are mostly made of water. rumor has it that on 𐍨𐍓𐍰𐍚𐍠 they use the triple point of what the humans call 'phosphoric acid' (it's a toasty place) and in 𓃾𓂃𓂌𓀩 they use the triple point of the ammonia-methane eutectic
  - nuancebydefault 3y ago
    It's funny that I can't even accomplish an emoticon in these comments while some people manage to draw complete scenes or algebraic formulas interleaved with the text. I must admit that, unlike a lot of HN'ers, I'm using a virtual keyboard on a heldheld device to type comments; I never took the effort of looking up how it is done though it must have to do with extended char sets.
    - kragen 3y ago
      most emoji are banned, as are nonstandard space symbols like thin space and some other things. emoticons (things like :-) and XD) are allowed. generally alphabetic characters and digits are allowed, and some other things, but i think unknown unicode is forbidden by default. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23440551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23440551 has some investigation and results which are probably still accurate i do most of my algebraic formulas with the compose key and a custom compose map mostly written by mark shoulson https://github.com/kragen/xcompose https://github.com/kragen/xcompose for the above, after a false start picking random unicode characters, i realized that maybe i shouldn't use a modern language because someone who actually uses the language might feel like i was calling them an extraterrestrial, so i switched to googling archaic scripts. i pasted part of the old permic table from wikipedia >>> s = '''𐍐‎ 𐍑‎ 𐍒‎ 𐍓‎ 𐍔‎ 𐍕‎ 𐍖‎ 𐍗‎ 𐍘‎ 𐍙‎ 𐍚‎ 𐍛‎ 𐍜‎ 𐍝‎ 𐍞‎ 𐍟‎ ... U+1036x 𐍠‎ 𐍡‎ 𐍢‎ 𐍣‎ 𐍤‎ 𐍥‎ 𐍦‎ 𐍧‎ 𐍨‎ 𐍩‎ 𐍪‎ 𐍫‎ 𐍬‎ 𐍭‎ 𐍮‎ 𐍯‎ ... U+1037x 𐍰‎ 𐍱‎ 𐍲‎ 𐍳‎ 𐍴‎ 𐍵‎''' >>> print(''.join(c for c in s if ord(c) >= 0x10350)) 𐍐𐍑𐍒𐍓𐍔𐍕𐍖𐍗𐍘𐍙𐍚𐍛𐍜𐍝𐍞𐍟𐍠𐍡𐍢𐍣𐍤𐍥𐍦𐍧𐍨𐍩𐍪𐍫𐍬𐍭𐍮𐍯𐍰𐍱𐍲𐍳𐍴𐍵 >>> len(''.join(c for c in s if ord(c) >= 0x10350)) 38 >>> permic = (''.join(c for c in s if ord(c) >= 0x10350)) >>> ''.join(random.choice(permic) for i in range(5)) '𐍨𐍓𐍰𐍚𐍠' and then i tried out the hieroglyphs range >>> print(''.join(chr(i) for i in range(0x13000, 0x14000))) 𓀀𓀁𓀂𓀃𓀄𓀅𓀆𓀇𓀈𓀉𓀊𓀋𓀌𓀍𓀎𓀏𓀐𓀑𓀒𓀓𓀔𓀕𓀖𓀗𓀘𓀙𓀚𓀛𓀜𓀝𓀞𓀟𓀠𓀡𓀢𓀣𓀤𓀥𓀦𓀧𓀨𓀩𓀪𓀫𓀬𓀭... 𓿦𓿧𓿨𓿩𓿪𓿫𓿬𓿭𓿮𓿯𓿰𓿱𓿲𓿳𓿴𓿵𓿶𓿷𓿸𓿹𓿺𓿻𓿼𓿽𓿾𓿿 but realized that most of them were unassigned, at least in my font and probably in the current unicode standard (in case someone discovers a new hieroglyph), so i just did this >>> hiero = (''.join(chr(i) for i in range(0x13000, 0x13100))) >>> ''.join(random.choice(hiero) for i in range(4)) '𓃾𓂃𓂌𓀩' you can do all this in python in termux on your phone too (you'll probably have to install it from f-droid) but it's a bit clumsier it's funny how this conversation has swung from the extreme of universal constants of the universe to the opposite extreme of completely arbitrary and historically contingent things like which ideograms (themselves completely arbitrary) are prevented from being posted by implementation bugs in hacker news
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    That’s why we picked water, but water exists everywhere. Earth, the kings foot, 1atm, are specific to the human experience.
    - kragen 3y ago
      most of the non-dark-matter non-dark-energy mass of the universe finds itself in conditions that prevent the existence of water: black holes, degenerate-matter stars, conventional plasma stars, things like that. almost all of the rest is hydrogen and helium, so water exists there in the same sense that uranium exists here. but, although almost all of the universe is cold enough to freeze hydrogen, its vapor pressure is high enough at the cbr that most of it is vapor, so basically none of that is solid. solid objects do have a substantial amount of water in them, although if our solar system is typical, many of them don't but sure, if it turns out that there are electron-degenerate-gas vortex intelligences on the surface of white-dwarf stars, they could very likely work out some way to launch robotic probes out of the star into places where water could exist, so that they could measure its triple point. and the folks on 𐍨𐍓𐍰𐍚𐍠 use trace amounts of water in their biology (it's a reasonably powerful base) and have isolated it in liquid form in their cryogenic laboratories. it's accessible in a way that the artifact kilogram and artifact meter and the circumference of the earth aren't
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > triple point of the ammonia-methane eutectic Which is a shame that the temperature scale is still anchored in that arbitrary mix, picked by a lazy apprentice. It's also historically base-10, not like the modern systematic base-8 units. (Can ammonia actually alloy with methane? Their crystalline lattices don't seem to be compatible, and they don't react together.)
    - kragen 3y ago
      i don't actually know. however, the same considerations would suggest that methane clathrates in water are impossible, which turns out not to be true. methane freezes at 90 kelvin, so if there's a eutectic, it would be lower than that.
      - cyberax 3y ago
        Clathrates are different, they are not eutectics. If you try to freeze them, they separate into methane gas and water ice. Metals can alloy with each other because the shared electron layer "glues" small imperfections in crystals where different metals meet. Can frozen ammonia behave similarly? Liquid ammonia can solvate free electrons, so perhaps frozen ammonia also can? It'd be interesting to actually try experiments with frozen ammonia.
        kragen 3y ago
        that's a fascinating idea! frozen electrides! it's a lot freezier than methane (195 kelvin, a difference large enough to make a methane eutectic much less likely) to the point where you might even be able to freeze it with convenient and safe dry ice rather than liquid nitrogen. and, i don't know, maybe if dry ice by itself won't do the trick, maybe dry ice mixed with liquid ammonia will. trying to buy anhydrous ammonia around here gets you put on a list, though, so i'm gonna opt out of this one there are a lot of solvated ionic eutectics with atmospheric-pressure water ice, despite the absence of metallic bonding

kragen 3y ago

guilty as charged. it gets worse, though: meters are originally based on the size of the earth, but humboldt's expedition (?) fucked up the measurement and now we're stuck with a meter that's significantly too short, nominally defined as the distance light travels in 9192631770/299792458 cycles of the hyperfine transition radiation frequency of cesium-133. you probably think this is a goddamned joke but it's not i ask you, what the fuck kind of number is 9192631770? is that a hexadecimal encoding of linus torvalds's first child's birthdate? no, it's just a random fucking number derived from the sumerian base 60 numbering system and the average rotational speed of the earth in the 20th century. the kelvin has a similarly filthy history; it's when the thermal energy changes by 1.380649e-23 joules, because that makes the triple point of water come out to 273.16 kelvins. so now we have to preserve those numbers for all eternity like they're the fucking holy writ of the priestesses at delphi in order to interpret scientific papers from the 19th and 20th century. (and don't get me started on the motherfucking calendar. jesus jumping blue christ.) you will be pleased to learn about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_units (which i used in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/2017-sap-allocation.html https://dercuano.github.io/notes/2017-sap-allocation.html because i'm uncreative) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal#Systematic_Dozenal_Nomenclature_(SDN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal#Systematic_Dozenal_...

lupusreal 3y ago
It all gets the job done, no reason to let any of it bother you.
nuancebydefault 3y ago
You probably know all this, but it is fun to write. Units are parts of models. Used Models were the best in class, at the time they were derived or adopted. Models are wrong and get replaced by less wrong models over time. That said I think meters and Kelvins are doing their job just fine even for use with rocket science. I'm glad I learned the SI units at school, they reduced the number of constants a lot in physical formulas.
- kragen 3y ago

thfuran 3y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature

fnordpiglet 3y ago
Quantum and their oppositionally defiant exceptions.