9 ms·

Microsoft has massive government contracts in literally every EU country. US is an ally, not antagonist/enemy.

by throwaway55671 3y ago

piaste 3y ago
"There are no permanent friends, only permanent interests."
chmod775 3y ago
Didn't US/EU have a trade war just ~3 years ago?
- kergonath 3y ago
  They’ve had trade wars for much of recent history, but don’t read too much into that. Allies can still disagree on matters of trade.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    Maybe ally/enemy is a spectrum and also not one-dimensional. "Not ally" does not imply enemy and my military ally might not be my ally in trade. Also most US allies have learned to not read too much into the word ally. The US makes for a rather fickle and sometimes insidious partner. Trust in the US on military matters is rather high (despite some recent blunders), but in every other arena it is basically nonexistent. I don't see why the US should receive any less scrutiny than China in this instance.
    - kergonath 3y ago
      I entirely agree. I’d add that as long as NATO was uncontroversial in American politics, allies could count on being able to work with each successive president, regardless of party, which definitely did help. There was the occasional bickering (like the French being vocal in their opposition to the war in Iraq), but nothing that would compromise the alliance in the long run. Things like “friendly” intelligence gathering, or indeed trade disputes, never stopped, but did not preclude cooperation at the highest levels. In that context, it’s fine to argue every now and then because everyone knows that neither side is likely to escalate things out of control. As you said, it did not affect trust in the fundamentals.
spacecadet 3y ago
Is it? From some points of view MS is "compromised" and potentially not an ally of the West, any more.
kergonath 3y ago
… for now. Trump is very much antagonistic and has a good shot ant being the next president. Even if he is not, considering current American politics, whoever gets elected in 2028 could very well be worse than him in terms of working with allies. Recent history taught us to not take some things for granted.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > history taught us to not take some things for granted Huge difference between not taking someone for granted and being antagonistic towards them.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    I don’t see any country in the EU being antagonistic to the US, really. Even nationalist parties are enamoured with American white nationalists.
zht 3y ago
until they elect a president that throws allies under the bus (I.e. NATO, NAFTA, etc) and gives state secrets to enemies
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >until they elect a president that throws allies under the bus (I.e. NATO, NAFTA, etc) Based on recent news, Trump has done more for NATO rearmament than any US president in history. Gee, maybe sometimes drastic steps are needed when 20 years of three other presidents doing everything but stand on their heads while begging other NATO members to spend more on their own defense failed. Trump was lambasted by the usual bien-pensant suspects when he told NATO this in 2018 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k>. He was right when at the UN he warned against Western European dependence on Russian energy, for which the German foreign minister and others laughed at him <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg>. And remember, Trump isn't even in office now; he's already done more for Western collective defense than a) the putative current president and b) an actual land war in Europe! >and gives state secrets to enemies Repeat this often enough and maybe it'll come true one day!
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Trump has done more for NATO rearmament than any US president in history Putin did that. To the degree Trump's statements have had an effect, it's in deharmonizing trans-Atlantic military coöperation. (EDIT: Trump and Putin had similar effects. See [1].) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39540275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39540275
    - TMWNN 3y ago
      >Putin did that. No. As I said, not even an actual land war in Europe has been as effective as Trump's mean words in getting Western Europe to actually get off their butts regarding defense.
      - deleted 3y ago

Microsoft has massive government contracts in literally every EU country. US is an ally, not antagonist/enemy.

piaste 3y ago

"There are no permanent friends, only permanent interests."

chmod775 3y ago

Didn't US/EU have a trade war just ~3 years ago?

kergonath 3y ago
They’ve had trade wars for much of recent history, but don’t read too much into that. Allies can still disagree on matters of trade.
- chmod775 3y ago
  Maybe ally/enemy is a spectrum and also not one-dimensional. "Not ally" does not imply enemy and my military ally might not be my ally in trade. Also most US allies have learned to not read too much into the word ally. The US makes for a rather fickle and sometimes insidious partner. Trust in the US on military matters is rather high (despite some recent blunders), but in every other arena it is basically nonexistent. I don't see why the US should receive any less scrutiny than China in this instance.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    I entirely agree. I’d add that as long as NATO was uncontroversial in American politics, allies could count on being able to work with each successive president, regardless of party, which definitely did help. There was the occasional bickering (like the French being vocal in their opposition to the war in Iraq), but nothing that would compromise the alliance in the long run. Things like “friendly” intelligence gathering, or indeed trade disputes, never stopped, but did not preclude cooperation at the highest levels. In that context, it’s fine to argue every now and then because everyone knows that neither side is likely to escalate things out of control. As you said, it did not affect trust in the fundamentals.

spacecadet 3y ago

Is it? From some points of view MS is "compromised" and potentially not an ally of the West, any more.

kergonath 3y ago

… for now. Trump is very much antagonistic and has a good shot ant being the next president. Even if he is not, considering current American politics, whoever gets elected in 2028 could very well be worse than him in terms of working with allies. Recent history taught us to not take some things for granted.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> history taught us to not take some things for granted Huge difference between not taking someone for granted and being antagonistic towards them.
- kergonath 3y ago
  I don’t see any country in the EU being antagonistic to the US, really. Even nationalist parties are enamoured with American white nationalists.

zht 3y ago

until they elect a president that throws allies under the bus (I.e. NATO, NAFTA, etc) and gives state secrets to enemies

TMWNN 3y ago
>until they elect a president that throws allies under the bus (I.e. NATO, NAFTA, etc) Based on recent news, Trump has done more for NATO rearmament than any US president in history. Gee, maybe sometimes drastic steps are needed when 20 years of three other presidents doing everything but stand on their heads while begging other NATO members to spend more on their own defense failed. Trump was lambasted by the usual bien-pensant suspects when he told NATO this in 2018 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k>. He was right when at the UN he warned against Western European dependence on Russian energy, for which the German foreign minister and others laughed at him <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg>. And remember, Trump isn't even in office now; he's already done more for Western collective defense than a) the putative current president and b) an actual land war in Europe! >and gives state secrets to enemies Repeat this often enough and maybe it'll come true one day!
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Trump has done more for NATO rearmament than any US president in history Putin did that. To the degree Trump's statements have had an effect, it's in deharmonizing trans-Atlantic military coöperation. (EDIT: Trump and Putin had similar effects. See [1].) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39540275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39540275
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    >Putin did that. No. As I said, not even an actual land war in Europe has been as effective as Trump's mean words in getting Western Europe to actually get off their butts regarding defense.
    - deleted 3y ago