6 ms·

A sweeping generalization of business and product people. I'll offer a counter example. This story starts over a decade ago. There was a high level executive a

by nikcub 15y ago

A sweeping generalization of business and product people. I'll offer a counter example. This story starts over a decade ago. There was a high level executive at a large enterprise software firm. The guy was one of the best enterprise sales people in North America and highly valued by the organization. In reading about the trend of software moving online he realized that the industry he was in, selling large scale enterprise solutions to Fortune 500 companies, was eventually going to be replaced by software delivered online. He attempted to get his organization to shift into investing in online web services, but they saw it as a threat to their traditional business model. He quit work and then went to find technical people who could implement the visitation. He ended up recruiting a group of 8-10 developers, all sold on the vision. He wrote up a quick vision for the company and raised a few million dollars on the back of it. He leased out cheap and nasty office space down in the suburbs outside of San Jose. He spent two weeks writing a software specification for a new enterprise product that would be entirely web based. The spec was a couple of dozen pages long. He also wrote a marketing brief on how the product would be sold. He handed the spec over to the developers and then went on vacation in Hawaii for a few months while they built the initial version of the product. A few months later and with a first version he went out to the media and announced 'the end of software' and introduced a new web services model for the enterprise: salesforce.com. Over 10 years later and the company has a $20 billion market cap, defined an entirely new industry and threatened the business of his old employer (Oracle) to the extend that they setup a clone competitor. If the original developers who joined Marc Benioff had read this blog post, they would have questioned 'his contribution', especially the part where he took off on holiday. Product and business people are entirely undervalued. Benioff could have found the eight developers he required from any thousands of other developers to implement what he had in mind, but there was only one person who had the vision, perseverance and balls to do what he did.

jonnathanson 15y ago
This is well said (and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve Jobs). But I think there's at least one point in the article that holds true: it's very tough to evaluate the credibility of a "business" co-founder until he's achieved success. A developer's talent can be measured and normalized; a business person -- before he becomes successful -- is a much riskier and more unknowable commodity. One way to look at things is to say that great businesspeople are undervalued. Another viewpoint is that the valuation of businesspeople carries with it a much higher risk multiplier. Or that the valuation has far fewer knowable variables. The article makes a variety of very unfair, broad, and naive generalizations about the role of a great business, marketing, or product person. It seems to conflate all business people into one bucket -- lumping the fly-by-night hucksters and phonies in with the true visionaries. And its point about how a business founder is 'only as good as his contact list' is a bit ridiculous. But unfortunately, that contact list is often the business person's best calling card. It's one of very few, knowable variables that he brings to the table. (A track record on paper is great, but can be unreliable, because anyone can spin a resume. Conversely, a list of impressive people who can vouch for someone, or even go to bat for him, is much more actionable).
- bad_user 15y ago
  and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve Jobs Steve Jobs started as an engineer and had Wozniak as his best friend. And if you think you can find a Steve Wozniak that can design a usable computer from a minimal number of chips, with a design that's extensible, with colored graphics, that can also write the software for it and that you can convince to quit his job for you ... good luck with that ;)
  - dkrich 15y ago
    What difference does it make? Jobs didn't make his name as an engineer. Technology of any kind is a means to an end. Knowing how to code a site is very much like knowing how to lay brick. It's a specialized skill to complete a certain task. In 20 years all of these "hackers" who are supposedly so valuable while the worthless business guys try to waste their time will be using completely different products in completely different contexts. Just because web app development is hot right now does not mean knowing how to code will make you rich. You still have to know what to build and how to create something that people want to buy. The tools are merely a cheap means of building a scalable distribution system. The reason I bring this up is that I am often reminded of the 96 WWDC where Jobs is lambasted by somebody for getting rid of their precious Java development tool of the day. At the time it was a horrible decision. Now the tools they were clinging to would be considered obsolete and horrendous by any measure. It is important to keep perspective no matter what you are working on. At the core it is always about your product. This coming from a person with two degrees in Computer Science and many years of software development experience.
    - kamaal 15y ago
      Let us put it this way. Knowing how to execute and executing should make you rich. No matter what that is. Selling is also execution, Raising money is also execution and Coding is also execution. But the word 'Business person' generally invokes the image of a middle level manager in a corporate whose only expertise seems to forwarding emails, filling up online forms and politics. That is why most hackers think a 'Business person' is useless. While the fact is everybody has a role to play.
lrobb 15y ago
This is gold. I've experienced the "irreplaceable" business person as well, though not on that scale. I was at a startup where a guy was almost singlehandedly bringing in a few million in revenue, which was crucial to our survival.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
skilesare 15y ago
The thing that is different here is that 'he raised a couple million dollars.' If you show up at my door with cash in the bank then you get my ear. This article is talking about the guy that shows up with just a plan and no cash.
- Alex3917 15y ago
  "If you show up at my door with cash in the bank then you get my ear. This article is talking about the guy that shows up with just a plan and no cash." Most VCs think the same thing. Realize though that this indicates a lack of skill on your part, not a lack of skill on the side of the founder.
nanijoe 15y ago
The key phrase here is "one of the best enterprise sales people in North America"...In addition, he understood the software enough to write the specs, AND raised money. Does not sound at all like the so-called business/ideas people in the original post.
lifeisstillgood 15y ago
From that story he sounds the total opposite of the OP's complaints. The pitch would have been, Hi I am a successful Sales exec with millions of dollars of yearly sales under my belt, I've hired 6 guys and am looking for a 7th to develop this new software I have an idea for, I have got x million in VC already and by the way once you are settled and running through the VC cash, I'm going to Cancun to recharge my batteries before coming back and selling the heck out of what you guys build. Hell, I would be very happy to get on the ground floor of that one.
- wildmXranat 15y ago
  Indeed. OP's comment confirms that author's suspicions are valid. Mind you, if the projects don't align with what he wants to work on, that's still a concern, but at least there's runway to make it happen.
ilamont 15y ago
It should be noted that Marc Benioff was once a developer himself (adventure games for the Atari 800, see http://thesocialcustomer.com/blakelandau/30345/behind-cloud-interview-salesforcecom%E2%80%99s-ceo-marc-benioff http://thesocialcustomer.com/blakelandau/30345/behind-cloud-... ). This would have given him additional credibility with some of the developers he recruited.
carguy1983 15y ago
From the wikipedia: Before joining Oracle, Benioff worked as an assembly language programmer at the Macintosh Division of Apple Computer, where he was inspired by the company and its co-founder, Steve Jobs. High school entrepreneur, Apple Macintosh assembly hacker, standout Oracle executive... this guy is the real deal, the true exceptional case that you take a risk on, not the money-less 'business' (and I do put that in quotes) guy most people run across day to day.
base698 15y ago
The post isn't under valued. Marc Benioff would have probably had Zuck's number on speed dial and been on Barack's 2nd level on LinkedIn. If you have rock star engineers that can crack out a highly technical product on short order, why not have a business guy that can get the product in front of well connected people quickly?
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
joshAg 15y ago
If he managed to come up with a multi-page business plan, get enough money to recruit 8-10 developers, get a couple million dollars in funding, come up with an actual spec himself, trust the team he assembled to write produce an mvp with almost no oversight on his part in 6 months, and have enough personal money to go vacation in a popular tourist destination for months, then I don't think he fits into the "doesn't know IT stuff" category, the "easily replaceable" category, or the "no track-record of success" category.
gnaritas 15y ago
Your story is an exception, the OP's story is the general rule.
dabent 15y ago
This is just another case of investing in people, just like YC, or any startup investor does. "The guy was one of the best enterprise sales people in North America and highly valued by the organization." I get your point and Benioff was not the ordinary "business" person. If someone with that level of success wanted to talk with me about their project, actually had some kind of written plan for it (even just a dozen pages) and could actually rent out space on top of that, they'd at least get me interested. I think most developers end being approached by a mid-level manager (often freshly laid off) who has an idea outside of their area of expertise, not so much as one page for a spec, no money and only has unwritten promises of equity for pay. I know I've been approached by a few over the last decade. If I bet on them, I'd have to try and understand what they want built, build it on my own time and hope that they honor their promises of pay in the future. Maybe there have been successes in that case, but it seems like such a long shot, especially when almost anything else offers a better reward-to-risk ratio, that it's never worth pursuing. I think that the repeated offers that developers often get from non-technical founders start to sound like the offers writers get to develop a novel based on an idea non-writer has. Very often, the developer has more than enough drive and imagination to develop their own idea, just an an author can develop stories on their own.

by nikcub 15y ago

jonnathanson 15y ago

This is well said (and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve Jobs). But I think there's at least one point in the article that holds true: it's very tough to evaluate the credibility of a "business" co-founder until he's achieved success. A developer's talent can be measured and normalized; a business person -- before he becomes successful -- is a much riskier and more unknowable commodity. One way to look at things is to say that great businesspeople are undervalued. Another viewpoint is that the valuation of businesspeople carries with it a much higher risk multiplier. Or that the valuation has far fewer knowable variables. The article makes a variety of very unfair, broad, and naive generalizations about the role of a great business, marketing, or product person. It seems to conflate all business people into one bucket -- lumping the fly-by-night hucksters and phonies in with the true visionaries. And its point about how a business founder is 'only as good as his contact list' is a bit ridiculous. But unfortunately, that contact list is often the business person's best calling card. It's one of very few, knowable variables that he brings to the table. (A track record on paper is great, but can be unreliable, because anyone can spin a resume. Conversely, a list of impressive people who can vouch for someone, or even go to bat for him, is much more actionable).

bad_user 15y ago
and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve Jobs Steve Jobs started as an engineer and had Wozniak as his best friend. And if you think you can find a Steve Wozniak that can design a usable computer from a minimal number of chips, with a design that's extensible, with colored graphics, that can also write the software for it and that you can convince to quit his job for you ... good luck with that ;)
- dkrich 15y ago
  What difference does it make? Jobs didn't make his name as an engineer. Technology of any kind is a means to an end. Knowing how to code a site is very much like knowing how to lay brick. It's a specialized skill to complete a certain task. In 20 years all of these "hackers" who are supposedly so valuable while the worthless business guys try to waste their time will be using completely different products in completely different contexts. Just because web app development is hot right now does not mean knowing how to code will make you rich. You still have to know what to build and how to create something that people want to buy. The tools are merely a cheap means of building a scalable distribution system. The reason I bring this up is that I am often reminded of the 96 WWDC where Jobs is lambasted by somebody for getting rid of their precious Java development tool of the day. At the time it was a horrible decision. Now the tools they were clinging to would be considered obsolete and horrendous by any measure. It is important to keep perspective no matter what you are working on. At the core it is always about your product. This coming from a person with two degrees in Computer Science and many years of software development experience.
  - kamaal 15y ago
    Let us put it this way. Knowing how to execute and executing should make you rich. No matter what that is. Selling is also execution, Raising money is also execution and Coding is also execution. But the word 'Business person' generally invokes the image of a middle level manager in a corporate whose only expertise seems to forwarding emails, filling up online forms and politics. That is why most hackers think a 'Business person' is useless. While the fact is everybody has a role to play.

lrobb 15y ago

This is gold. I've experienced the "irreplaceable" business person as well, though not on that scale. I was at a startup where a guy was almost singlehandedly bringing in a few million in revenue, which was crucial to our survival.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

skilesare 15y ago

The thing that is different here is that 'he raised a couple million dollars.' If you show up at my door with cash in the bank then you get my ear. This article is talking about the guy that shows up with just a plan and no cash.

Alex3917 15y ago
"If you show up at my door with cash in the bank then you get my ear. This article is talking about the guy that shows up with just a plan and no cash." Most VCs think the same thing. Realize though that this indicates a lack of skill on your part, not a lack of skill on the side of the founder.

nanijoe 15y ago

The key phrase here is "one of the best enterprise sales people in North America"...In addition, he understood the software enough to write the specs, AND raised money. Does not sound at all like the so-called business/ideas people in the original post.

lifeisstillgood 15y ago

From that story he sounds the total opposite of the OP's complaints. The pitch would have been, Hi I am a successful Sales exec with millions of dollars of yearly sales under my belt, I've hired 6 guys and am looking for a 7th to develop this new software I have an idea for, I have got x million in VC already and by the way once you are settled and running through the VC cash, I'm going to Cancun to recharge my batteries before coming back and selling the heck out of what you guys build. Hell, I would be very happy to get on the ground floor of that one.

wildmXranat 15y ago
Indeed. OP's comment confirms that author's suspicions are valid. Mind you, if the projects don't align with what he wants to work on, that's still a concern, but at least there's runway to make it happen.

ilamont 15y ago

It should be noted that Marc Benioff was once a developer himself (adventure games for the Atari 800, see http://thesocialcustomer.com/blakelandau/30345/behind-cloud-interview-salesforcecom%E2%80%99s-ceo-marc-benioff http://thesocialcustomer.com/blakelandau/30345/behind-cloud-... ). This would have given him additional credibility with some of the developers he recruited.

carguy1983 15y ago

From the wikipedia: Before joining Oracle, Benioff worked as an assembly language programmer at the Macintosh Division of Apple Computer, where he was inspired by the company and its co-founder, Steve Jobs. High school entrepreneur, Apple Macintosh assembly hacker, standout Oracle executive... this guy is the real deal, the true exceptional case that you take a risk on, not the money-less 'business' (and I do put that in quotes) guy most people run across day to day.

base698 15y ago

The post isn't under valued. Marc Benioff would have probably had Zuck's number on speed dial and been on Barack's 2nd level on LinkedIn. If you have rock star engineers that can crack out a highly technical product on short order, why not have a business guy that can get the product in front of well connected people quickly?

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

joshAg 15y ago

If he managed to come up with a multi-page business plan, get enough money to recruit 8-10 developers, get a couple million dollars in funding, come up with an actual spec himself, trust the team he assembled to write produce an mvp with almost no oversight on his part in 6 months, and have enough personal money to go vacation in a popular tourist destination for months, then I don't think he fits into the "doesn't know IT stuff" category, the "easily replaceable" category, or the "no track-record of success" category.

gnaritas 15y ago

Your story is an exception, the OP's story is the general rule.

dabent 15y ago

This is just another case of investing in people, just like YC, or any startup investor does. "The guy was one of the best enterprise sales people in North America and highly valued by the organization." I get your point and Benioff was not the ordinary "business" person. If someone with that level of success wanted to talk with me about their project, actually had some kind of written plan for it (even just a dozen pages) and could actually rent out space on top of that, they'd at least get me interested. I think most developers end being approached by a mid-level manager (often freshly laid off) who has an idea outside of their area of expertise, not so much as one page for a spec, no money and only has unwritten promises of equity for pay. I know I've been approached by a few over the last decade. If I bet on them, I'd have to try and understand what they want built, build it on my own time and hope that they honor their promises of pay in the future. Maybe there have been successes in that case, but it seems like such a long shot, especially when almost anything else offers a better reward-to-risk ratio, that it's never worth pursuing. I think that the repeated offers that developers often get from non-technical founders start to sound like the offers writers get to develop a novel based on an idea non-writer has. Very often, the developer has more than enough drive and imagination to develop their own idea, just an an author can develop stories on their own.