4 ms·

I thought it was already well established that neanderthals were cognitively on par with modern humans, and may even have been more intelligent? While it's not

I thought it was already well established that neanderthals were cognitively on par with modern humans, and may even have been more intelligent? While it's not uninteresting that we now have evidence for them making complex adhesives, I am less surprised by the find than by other peoples' apparent surprise about their high functioning.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Lots of papers reaching for that conclusion, but put it all together and it would take giving every benefit of the doubt to a dozen sites to believe it. In other words, maybe they were high-functioning, it's just possible. But I wouldn't bet on it.
- EnigmaFlare 3y ago
  Not only sites but more Neanderthal DNA also corresponds roughly with higher IQ in modern human populations. It's still very weak evidence though.
  - jgilias 3y ago
    Might as well be that the cause and effect is reversed here. Such as, populations that were in contact with the Neanderthals had to become smarter to outcompete them.
- enasterosophes 3y ago
  So you think the odds are against it? I think that seems like a strong take, but I'm not an expert in the field. In as much as I can see why "no significant intelligence" is the null hypothesis, I'd still be inclined to word doubts more cautiously. There is a difference between "we don't have strong enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis" and "I think the null hypothesis is more probable."
  - xetplan 3y ago
    Even if they were in the ball park intelligence wise, humans are absolutely ruthless animals. Personally, I don't think there is all that much mystery what happened. Animals seem to have this habit of vanishing when humans move in.
15457345234 3y ago
> by other peoples' apparent surprise about their high functioning A lot of high school textbooks carried a very simplified message about human evolution and basically included neanderthals as 'a branch of human evolution that died out due to being dumb.' Sci-fi authors actually gave the subject a fairly good treatment, quite a few sci-fi books covered neanderthals and posited neanderthal/sapiens tribal wars etc. Couple of short stories in the Man-Kzin Wars books cover the subject: Cathouse (in The Man-Kzin Wars) and Briar Patch (in The Man-Kzin Wars II ) both by Dean Ing Very much worth a read...
- enasterosophes 3y ago
  yeah, I understand that bias from the general population who don't read scifi :) When I was a kid I liked Asimov's Child of Time.
  - 15457345234 3y ago
    Haven't read that one, might have to give it a glance. Always thought Asimov a bit dry, preferred Niven's more... whimsical style of writing.
arp242 3y ago
It's not well established at all. Obviously Neanderthals were intelligent, but to what degree is a lot less clear. It's a hotly debated topic with lots of disagreement. Almost everything about Neanderthals is controversial. Take almost everything you read about Neanderthals that talks in absolutes with a grain of salt, because chances are a significant body of reasonable well-respected experts will disagree. The typical story is something along the lines of "well, there is some evidence, but it's not very strong, and it could mean a number of different things, and oh, it also could have been humans". With pre-historic humans we can reasonably safely operate on the assumption they were at least roughly like us, and take lessons from more recent hunter-gatherer groups, and things like that. But for Neanderthals you can't really do that because their behaviour and "sensibilities" could have been very different. It was bloody rude of them to go extinct before we had a chance to ask some questions.
- enasterosophes 3y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the nuanced explanation. Based on various things I saw over the last few years I thought it must be cut-and-dry, but no doubt the reporting erred on the sensational side.
8bitsrule 3y ago
>may even have been more intelligent? One might argue that painting ochre on cave walls is more intelligent (and culturally superior ) than painting radioactivity all over the sky, painting man-made carcinogens all over the ground, painting our insides with plastic, depleting - as rapidly as possible - resources future humans will need ... and all the 'clever' magic tricks we can beat our chests about. 'Modern' may turn out, one day, to be a darkly humorous pejorative.
- MichaelBurge 3y ago
  They might've been even worse. Someone on Neanderthal Hacker News would be writing the same comment praising us for being a much smarter species, because we died out instead of inventing nuclear weapons, leaded gasoline, and microplastics like modern Neanderthals did. For all you know, every humanoid species that was intelligent was equally as destructive. Maybe we're the least destructive and you should be praising us.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago

Lots of papers reaching for that conclusion, but put it all together and it would take giving every benefit of the doubt to a dozen sites to believe it. In other words, maybe they were high-functioning, it's just possible. But I wouldn't bet on it.

EnigmaFlare 3y ago
Not only sites but more Neanderthal DNA also corresponds roughly with higher IQ in modern human populations. It's still very weak evidence though.
- jgilias 3y ago
  Might as well be that the cause and effect is reversed here. Such as, populations that were in contact with the Neanderthals had to become smarter to outcompete them.
enasterosophes 3y ago
So you think the odds are against it? I think that seems like a strong take, but I'm not an expert in the field. In as much as I can see why "no significant intelligence" is the null hypothesis, I'd still be inclined to word doubts more cautiously. There is a difference between "we don't have strong enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis" and "I think the null hypothesis is more probable."
- xetplan 3y ago
  Even if they were in the ball park intelligence wise, humans are absolutely ruthless animals. Personally, I don't think there is all that much mystery what happened. Animals seem to have this habit of vanishing when humans move in.

15457345234 3y ago

> by other peoples' apparent surprise about their high functioning A lot of high school textbooks carried a very simplified message about human evolution and basically included neanderthals as 'a branch of human evolution that died out due to being dumb.' Sci-fi authors actually gave the subject a fairly good treatment, quite a few sci-fi books covered neanderthals and posited neanderthal/sapiens tribal wars etc. Couple of short stories in the Man-Kzin Wars books cover the subject: Cathouse (in The Man-Kzin Wars) and Briar Patch (in The Man-Kzin Wars II ) both by Dean Ing Very much worth a read...

enasterosophes 3y ago
yeah, I understand that bias from the general population who don't read scifi :) When I was a kid I liked Asimov's Child of Time.
- 15457345234 3y ago
  Haven't read that one, might have to give it a glance. Always thought Asimov a bit dry, preferred Niven's more... whimsical style of writing.

arp242 3y ago

It's not well established at all. Obviously Neanderthals were intelligent, but to what degree is a lot less clear. It's a hotly debated topic with lots of disagreement. Almost everything about Neanderthals is controversial. Take almost everything you read about Neanderthals that talks in absolutes with a grain of salt, because chances are a significant body of reasonable well-respected experts will disagree. The typical story is something along the lines of "well, there is some evidence, but it's not very strong, and it could mean a number of different things, and oh, it also could have been humans". With pre-historic humans we can reasonably safely operate on the assumption they were at least roughly like us, and take lessons from more recent hunter-gatherer groups, and things like that. But for Neanderthals you can't really do that because their behaviour and "sensibilities" could have been very different. It was bloody rude of them to go extinct before we had a chance to ask some questions.

enasterosophes 3y ago
Interesting, thanks for the nuanced explanation. Based on various things I saw over the last few years I thought it must be cut-and-dry, but no doubt the reporting erred on the sensational side.

8bitsrule 3y ago

>may even have been more intelligent? One might argue that painting ochre on cave walls is more intelligent (and culturally superior ) than painting radioactivity all over the sky, painting man-made carcinogens all over the ground, painting our insides with plastic, depleting - as rapidly as possible - resources future humans will need ... and all the 'clever' magic tricks we can beat our chests about. 'Modern' may turn out, one day, to be a darkly humorous pejorative.

MichaelBurge 3y ago
They might've been even worse. Someone on Neanderthal Hacker News would be writing the same comment praising us for being a much smarter species, because we died out instead of inventing nuclear weapons, leaded gasoline, and microplastics like modern Neanderthals did. For all you know, every humanoid species that was intelligent was equally as destructive. Maybe we're the least destructive and you should be praising us.