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Ignorantly: is this how MacOS kind of works? It always felt incredibly good how applications were always just this one “file” you’d drag and drop and manage. N

Ignorantly: is this how MacOS kind of works? It always felt incredibly good how applications were always just this one “file” you’d drag and drop and manage. Nothing makes me feel dumber than trying to figure out where the heck anything is or gets placed in my Ubuntu machine.

bombcar 3y ago
Bundles on macOS are/were a really good idea, but applications will still spurt some juice in weird random locations, usually in ~/Library. Fun comes when you have things like minecraft launchers that contain everything and all the worlds and saves inside the bundle.
- Klonoar 3y ago
  The trick of shoving everything inside the bundle (including write things) no longer works if you're codesigned - there was always a note in the docs (buried, as usual) that while it might work it wasn't guaranteed to always work. Sure enough, as of a recent release it'll invalidate your signature if you've distributed it codesigned and write into the bundle.
  - nusl 3y ago
    If I wrote programs for Mac, this is one of the things that would really piss me off. Then, I'd write to ~/Library because I'm not gonna spend the time to figure out how to make it work with codesigning, if at all possible.
    - Klonoar 3y ago
      But like... why? If you wrote for Mac, you'd also probably follow the news and updates from Apple, which didn't exactly hide the direction they've been pushing things in. You also _should_ write to a third party folder, preferably `~/Library/Application\ Support`. It's what it's for, after all.
jwells89 3y ago
> Nothing makes me feel dumber than trying to figure out where the heck anything is or gets placed in my Ubuntu machine. And this is made somewhat worse by Linux file managers trying to hide any part of the filesystem that’s not your home folder or mounted drives. I get why it’s done, the directory structure of your average Linux install is an absolute maze that’s sometimes confusing even for the technically inclined, let alone the home users targeted by major distributions. It’s ultimately treating the symptom and not the cause, though, and I think more Linux distributions should give serious thought to modernizations of their filesystem structures (as Gobo has). It’s tempting to play with this myself. My goals would be to come up with a structure that’s reasonably self-explanatory, guides novices away from the dragons, and allows file managers to hide very little (maybe nothing) without consequence.
- Qwertious 3y ago
  You know what's fun? Finding a random non-computer-person and asking them what each FHS directory is for. "dev" is obviously for developers. "run" is where the apps are located. "bin" is the recycle bin.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Why would a random non-computer person know or care about that kind of internal detail? It's like asking people about random files in system32.
    - nmz 3y ago
      Why would they not? we all have to use computers. Secretaries used to be able to code, such a thing is not possible nowadays as programmers create more and more obscurity. Corporate jargon is how companies hide away inefficiencies and illegalities. Now, jargon is usually not that, but most of the time it is. The same way programmers said a kilobyte is 1024 bytes (seriously?) To add to your point, yes, do ask a random person what notepad.exe doe vs what vi or emacs does.
      - 3y ago
op00to 3y ago
Querying the rpm database in Fedora is simple. Can you not do the same with dpkg?
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  Why are you downvoted? That is the solution. Every package manager has this feature. One can list the files owned by any package on any Linux system, doesn't matter if it's Arch Linux or Termux.
MenhirMike 3y ago
> It always felt incredibly good how applications were always just this one “file” While I agree with that in principle, in practice that's not true for a lot of applications that put a lot of stuff into ~/Library and /Library, and it's not unusual to see multi-step manual instructions on how to uninstall some apps on macOS. (Especially important if those apps add Login items) Windows' Add/Remove Programs at least gives a central space to trigger an uninstall, and most apps stick to it properly.
- card_zero 3y ago
  Classic Mac OS, then. I assume /Library is something that appeared around the year 2000 after they threw in the towel and turned into Unix.
- xcrunner529 3y ago
  Yes they write config and user data there (like /etc in Linux) that is separate and custom from the program itself. Makes sense to me.
wly_cdgr 3y ago
Wow, I absolutely hate this about Mac
- card_zero 3y ago
  I respect your curious preference, but my theory of mind is failing me on this one. You like dependencies, or moving files by typing, or perhaps even both?
  - wly_cdgr 3y ago
    Heh. Yes and yes and in general I like to see the guts and be free to easily fiddle with them. The Mac way is the software equivalent of how you can't open their hardware easily, which I also loathe. To me a love of Apple is one of the surest signs that a person is not a real hacker/programmer but is just in this industry for the $. "I just want to get shit done" ...no you just want to make money. There are exceptions but they are rare.

bombcar 3y ago

Bundles on macOS are/were a really good idea, but applications will still spurt some juice in weird random locations, usually in ~/Library. Fun comes when you have things like minecraft launchers that contain everything and all the worlds and saves inside the bundle.

Klonoar 3y ago
The trick of shoving everything inside the bundle (including write things) no longer works if you're codesigned - there was always a note in the docs (buried, as usual) that while it might work it wasn't guaranteed to always work. Sure enough, as of a recent release it'll invalidate your signature if you've distributed it codesigned and write into the bundle.
- nusl 3y ago
  If I wrote programs for Mac, this is one of the things that would really piss me off. Then, I'd write to ~/Library because I'm not gonna spend the time to figure out how to make it work with codesigning, if at all possible.
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    But like... why? If you wrote for Mac, you'd also probably follow the news and updates from Apple, which didn't exactly hide the direction they've been pushing things in. You also _should_ write to a third party folder, preferably `~/Library/Application\ Support`. It's what it's for, after all.

jwells89 3y ago

> Nothing makes me feel dumber than trying to figure out where the heck anything is or gets placed in my Ubuntu machine. And this is made somewhat worse by Linux file managers trying to hide any part of the filesystem that’s not your home folder or mounted drives. I get why it’s done, the directory structure of your average Linux install is an absolute maze that’s sometimes confusing even for the technically inclined, let alone the home users targeted by major distributions. It’s ultimately treating the symptom and not the cause, though, and I think more Linux distributions should give serious thought to modernizations of their filesystem structures (as Gobo has). It’s tempting to play with this myself. My goals would be to come up with a structure that’s reasonably self-explanatory, guides novices away from the dragons, and allows file managers to hide very little (maybe nothing) without consequence.

Qwertious 3y ago
You know what's fun? Finding a random non-computer-person and asking them what each FHS directory is for. "dev" is obviously for developers. "run" is where the apps are located. "bin" is the recycle bin.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Why would a random non-computer person know or care about that kind of internal detail? It's like asking people about random files in system32.
  - nmz 3y ago
    Why would they not? we all have to use computers. Secretaries used to be able to code, such a thing is not possible nowadays as programmers create more and more obscurity. Corporate jargon is how companies hide away inefficiencies and illegalities. Now, jargon is usually not that, but most of the time it is. The same way programmers said a kilobyte is 1024 bytes (seriously?) To add to your point, yes, do ask a random person what notepad.exe doe vs what vi or emacs does.
    - 3y ago

op00to 3y ago

Querying the rpm database in Fedora is simple. Can you not do the same with dpkg?

matheusmoreira 3y ago
Why are you downvoted? That is the solution. Every package manager has this feature. One can list the files owned by any package on any Linux system, doesn't matter if it's Arch Linux or Termux.

MenhirMike 3y ago

> It always felt incredibly good how applications were always just this one “file” While I agree with that in principle, in practice that's not true for a lot of applications that put a lot of stuff into ~/Library and /Library, and it's not unusual to see multi-step manual instructions on how to uninstall some apps on macOS. (Especially important if those apps add Login items) Windows' Add/Remove Programs at least gives a central space to trigger an uninstall, and most apps stick to it properly.

card_zero 3y ago
Classic Mac OS, then. I assume /Library is something that appeared around the year 2000 after they threw in the towel and turned into Unix.
xcrunner529 3y ago
Yes they write config and user data there (like /etc in Linux) that is separate and custom from the program itself. Makes sense to me.

wly_cdgr 3y ago

Wow, I absolutely hate this about Mac

card_zero 3y ago
I respect your curious preference, but my theory of mind is failing me on this one. You like dependencies, or moving files by typing, or perhaps even both?
- wly_cdgr 3y ago
  Heh. Yes and yes and in general I like to see the guts and be free to easily fiddle with them. The Mac way is the software equivalent of how you can't open their hardware easily, which I also loathe. To me a love of Apple is one of the surest signs that a person is not a real hacker/programmer but is just in this industry for the $. "I just want to get shit done" ...no you just want to make money. There are exceptions but they are rare.