3 ms·

I don't think Nintendo's argument that Yuzu's primary use case is piracy holds any merit. Nintendo is quite literally a part of the reason why people pirate Swi

I don't think Nintendo's argument that Yuzu's primary use case is piracy holds any merit. Nintendo is quite literally a part of the reason why people pirate Switch games they already own. What do you have to do to legally play Switch games on Yuzu? Oh, idk... * Jailbreak your Switch. * Dump your decryption keys. * Dump your games. * Never update your Switch ever again. * Pray Nintendo doesn't shove an update down your throat. * Void your warranty. * Hope Nintendo won't brick your Switch. How many people would use Yuzu legally if it weren't for Nintendo's anti-consumer practices? Nintendo can't just argue that Yuzu is made for piracy when Nintendo pushes people to piracy who legally own the Switch and Switch games in my opinion.

infotainment 3y ago
I feel like you’re undermining your own argument here. Yes, it’s exceedingly complex to “legally” play your own games on Yuzu. This bolsters the argument that Yuzu is primarily targeting users of pirated content, because essentially no one would bother doing all those steps you listed.
- jamesear 3y ago
  I think MyFedora is suggesting that even if Yuzu's primary usecase is piracy, that's because it's so difficult to use Yuzu in the legit manner (due to Nintendo's DRM on the console/game you own).
  - MyFedora 3y ago
    Yep, and that also inflates the number of pirates since some of them pirate Switch games for ease of use they already bought.
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. Currently we have this weird mealy-mouthed roundabout discussions where people act ever so outraged at the idea that a tool or site is primarily used for piracy when anyone who's not hopelessly naïve recognizes that that's in fact what they're used for. At best we get comments like yours that are anti-DRM...but still dance around the fact that being anti-DRM is being pro-piracy. This isn't even about whether I support piracy. I just think it's oddly disingenuous to both treat piracy as a moral/legal wrong (else why the need to defend/excuse Yuzu's clear involvement?) and be shocked and outraged when an entity whose works have been pirated does something about it.
    - jamesear 3y ago
      > I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. I don't think Yuzu advocates are actually advocating piracy. I think they think an illegal use of a tool should not mean the tool is banned. "Emulators don't pirate games, pirates do." I think our echo chamber will surface views amenable to this viewpoint. Emulation news is quite literally hacker news. But we deceive ourselves with such a bubble, when the outside world doesn't lean our way. Downplaying piracy usage doesn't do us any favours when trying to build an accurate model.
      - filleduchaos 3y ago
        I think you've phrased my point better than I did. What I meant was that to advocate for software like Yuzu to exist necessarily entails defending piracy, because outside of a tech echo chamber almost nobody is interested in an emulator existing for emulation's sake. To illustrate what I mean...if credible stats were somehow collected and showed that 99% of Yuzu users were using it to run games they didn't pay for, I think plenty of judiciaries at that point would consider it a de facto pirating tool versus a tool that is incidentally used for piracy. If you think that this still doesn't mean that the project should be shut down or fined, then I think it's a lot more productive to advocate for such software to exist even if it's a pirating tool than to try to sell everyone on the idea that it's totally a minority that are using it as such. And I think that would require going back to the drawing board re: digital IP rights.
    - garaetjjte 3y ago
      >but still dance around the fact that being anti-DRM is being pro-piracy I think this is disingenuous, there's difference between being pro-piracy and against whatever inane terms publisher wants. There's argument that when you buy a game you can use it in any way you want, including playing it on different devices. Somewhat like first-sale doctrine.
      - filleduchaos 3y ago
        I've clarified what I mean in a different comment[0]. But to speak to being anti-DRM in particular, I think it's either highly disingenuous or very naïve to argue that all or even anything close to a majority of people who are against DRM simply want to use digital media they've actually bought in any way that they want. It makes no sense to downplay the situation that led to the rise of DRM (and still persists today!) as if IP holders just one day decided to screw over their paying audiences for no reason. It's a lot more straightforward in my opinion to say you just don't care that people pirate games et al and/or that you don't consider it a real harm to an IP holder. It's not as if anyone ever says or suggests anything to them when their works get pirated other than "it happens, sucks to be you" or even "have you tried pandering to the pirates so maybe a tiny percent of them will buy your work?" - so what then exactly is the point of piracy being illegal? 0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39533551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39533551
- TillE 3y ago
  Of course nobody dumps their own games, but it's really common for people who already own the games to download a pirated copy to play on emulator. That's how I use Yuzu and Citra (which is especially great, so I don't have to squint at the crappy 3DS screens). Technically illegal, technically "piracy"? Probably! But morally, who cares.

infotainment 3y ago

I feel like you’re undermining your own argument here. Yes, it’s exceedingly complex to “legally” play your own games on Yuzu. This bolsters the argument that Yuzu is primarily targeting users of pirated content, because essentially no one would bother doing all those steps you listed.

jamesear 3y ago
I think MyFedora is suggesting that even if Yuzu's primary usecase is piracy, that's because it's so difficult to use Yuzu in the legit manner (due to Nintendo's DRM on the console/game you own).
- MyFedora 3y ago
  Yep, and that also inflates the number of pirates since some of them pirate Switch games for ease of use they already bought.
- filleduchaos 3y ago
  I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. Currently we have this weird mealy-mouthed roundabout discussions where people act ever so outraged at the idea that a tool or site is primarily used for piracy when anyone who's not hopelessly naïve recognizes that that's in fact what they're used for. At best we get comments like yours that are anti-DRM...but still dance around the fact that being anti-DRM is being pro-piracy. This isn't even about whether I support piracy. I just think it's oddly disingenuous to both treat piracy as a moral/legal wrong (else why the need to defend/excuse Yuzu's clear involvement?) and be shocked and outraged when an entity whose works have been pirated does something about it.
  - jamesear 3y ago
    > I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. I don't think Yuzu advocates are actually advocating piracy. I think they think an illegal use of a tool should not mean the tool is banned. "Emulators don't pirate games, pirates do." I think our echo chamber will surface views amenable to this viewpoint. Emulation news is quite literally hacker news. But we deceive ourselves with such a bubble, when the outside world doesn't lean our way. Downplaying piracy usage doesn't do us any favours when trying to build an accurate model.
    - filleduchaos 3y ago
      I think you've phrased my point better than I did. What I meant was that to advocate for software like Yuzu to exist necessarily entails defending piracy, because outside of a tech echo chamber almost nobody is interested in an emulator existing for emulation's sake. To illustrate what I mean...if credible stats were somehow collected and showed that 99% of Yuzu users were using it to run games they didn't pay for, I think plenty of judiciaries at that point would consider it a de facto pirating tool versus a tool that is incidentally used for piracy. If you think that this still doesn't mean that the project should be shut down or fined, then I think it's a lot more productive to advocate for such software to exist even if it's a pirating tool than to try to sell everyone on the idea that it's totally a minority that are using it as such. And I think that would require going back to the drawing board re: digital IP rights.
  - garaetjjte 3y ago
    >but still dance around the fact that being anti-DRM is being pro-piracy I think this is disingenuous, there's difference between being pro-piracy and against whatever inane terms publisher wants. There's argument that when you buy a game you can use it in any way you want, including playing it on different devices. Somewhat like first-sale doctrine.
    - filleduchaos 3y ago
      I've clarified what I mean in a different comment[0]. But to speak to being anti-DRM in particular, I think it's either highly disingenuous or very naïve to argue that all or even anything close to a majority of people who are against DRM simply want to use digital media they've actually bought in any way that they want. It makes no sense to downplay the situation that led to the rise of DRM (and still persists today!) as if IP holders just one day decided to screw over their paying audiences for no reason. It's a lot more straightforward in my opinion to say you just don't care that people pirate games et al and/or that you don't consider it a real harm to an IP holder. It's not as if anyone ever says or suggests anything to them when their works get pirated other than "it happens, sucks to be you" or even "have you tried pandering to the pirates so maybe a tiny percent of them will buy your work?" - so what then exactly is the point of piracy being illegal? 0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39533551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39533551
TillE 3y ago
Of course nobody dumps their own games, but it's really common for people who already own the games to download a pirated copy to play on emulator. That's how I use Yuzu and Citra (which is especially great, so I don't have to squint at the crappy 3DS screens). Technically illegal, technically "piracy"? Probably! But morally, who cares.