7 ms·

The only comment of someone saying they had used Yuzu for piracy has been flagged, and is no longer visible. This might HN readers a skewed perspective on how

The only comment of someone saying they had used Yuzu for piracy has been flagged, and is no longer visible. This might HN readers a skewed perspective on how much Yuzu is used for piracy. I have many acquaintances/friends in different circles, with the means to pay, who use Yuzu for piracy. There are dedicated forums of people who coordinate on how to do this. Emulation is great as a means to study or play backups, but its also fair that Nintendo has legitimate business interest in curtailing this. IANAL, and have no idea how their case against Yuzu developers will go.

MyFedora 3y ago
I don't think Nintendo's argument that Yuzu's primary use case is piracy holds any merit. Nintendo is quite literally a part of the reason why people pirate Switch games they already own. What do you have to do to legally play Switch games on Yuzu? Oh, idk... * Jailbreak your Switch. * Dump your decryption keys. * Dump your games. * Never update your Switch ever again. * Pray Nintendo doesn't shove an update down your throat. * Void your warranty. * Hope Nintendo won't brick your Switch. How many people would use Yuzu legally if it weren't for Nintendo's anti-consumer practices? Nintendo can't just argue that Yuzu is made for piracy when Nintendo pushes people to piracy who legally own the Switch and Switch games in my opinion.
- infotainment 3y ago
  I feel like you’re undermining your own argument here. Yes, it’s exceedingly complex to “legally” play your own games on Yuzu. This bolsters the argument that Yuzu is primarily targeting users of pirated content, because essentially no one would bother doing all those steps you listed.
  - jamesear 3y ago
    I think MyFedora is suggesting that even if Yuzu's primary usecase is piracy, that's because it's so difficult to use Yuzu in the legit manner (due to Nintendo's DRM on the console/game you own).
    - MyFedora 3y ago
      Yep, and that also inflates the number of pirates since some of them pirate Switch games for ease of use they already bought.
    - filleduchaos 3y ago
      I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. Currently we have this weird mealy-mouthed roundabout discussions where people act ever so outraged at the idea that a tool or site is primarily used for piracy when anyone who's not hopelessly naïve recognizes that that's in fact what they're used for. At best we get comments like yours that are anti-DRM...but still dance around the fact that being anti-DRM is being pro-piracy. This isn't even about whether I support piracy. I just think it's oddly disingenuous to both treat piracy as a moral/legal wrong (else why the need to defend/excuse Yuzu's clear involvement?) and be shocked and outraged when an entity whose works have been pirated does something about it.
      - jamesear 3y ago
        > I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. I don't think Yuzu advocates are actually advocating piracy. I think they think an illegal use of a tool should not mean the tool is banned. "Emulators don't pirate games, pirates do." I think our echo chamber will surface views amenable to this viewpoint. Emulation news is quite literally hacker news. But we deceive ourselves with such a bubble, when the outside world doesn't lean our way. Downplaying piracy usage doesn't do us any favours when trying to build an accurate model.
        filleduchaos 3y ago
        I think you've phrased my point better than I did. What I meant was that to advocate for software like Yuzu to exist necessarily entails defending piracy, because outside of a tech echo chamber almost nobody is interested in an emulator existing for emulation's sake. To illustrate what I mean...if credible stats were somehow collected and showed that 99% of Yuzu users were using it to run games they didn't pay for, I think plenty of judiciaries at that point would consider it a de facto pirating tool versus a tool that is incidentally used for piracy. If you think that this still doesn't mean that the project should be shut down or fined, then I think it's a lot more productive to advocate for such software to exist even if it's a pirating tool than to try to sell everyone on the idea that it's totally a minority that are using it as such. And I think that would require going back to the drawing board re: digital IP rights.
  - TillE 3y ago
    Of course nobody dumps their own games, but it's really common for people who already own the games to download a pirated copy to play on emulator. That's how I use Yuzu and Citra (which is especially great, so I don't have to squint at the crappy 3DS screens). Technically illegal, technically "piracy"? Probably! But morally, who cares.
zucker42 3y ago
Hammers are used for theft, as well. Even if Nintendo's business would benefit from emulators not existing[1], it doesn't mean we should ban emulators (or create laws which allow multinationals to sue open source emulator projects out of existence). [1] which is not necessarily true
- jamesear 3y ago
  I understand your argument, and perhaps a similar one will be made to the courts. For some people, if a tool has a single legitimate user, and otherwise haa illegitimate users, then the tool should be allowed. For others, if the tool is mostly used for illegitimate means, then the tool should be banned. Where the law lands in this case will be partly based on these values, and the benefits/harms to all parties. I don't know enough about the case, but I don't think it's as clear cut as a hammer.
  - huggingmouth 3y ago
    Lock picking tools are legal and they're primarily used for illegal activities. The same can be said for gun use (not ownership). How much something is used for illegal activities should have no baring on whether it is allowed in a free country.
    - StefanBatory 3y ago
      Not everywhere! In Poland for example having lockpicking tools is illegal and carries prison sentence unless you're licensed lockpicker.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
gertop 3y ago
Seriously it's just bizarre how obtuse HN can be when it comes to piracy. Nobody is dumping their own games. Very few buy the switch games they emulate. The following usual claim is "it's Nintendo's own fault for not releasing their games on PC and Android". What kind of asinine argument is that? Then there's the "emulation isn't illegal", which is probably the only sound argument. But that isn't the issue here. The issue is the authors are now making over 500k/yr from their emulator, whose only purpose is to pirate games that are still commercially available.
- zucker42 3y ago
  > "it's Nintendo's own fault for not releasing their games on PC and Android" I understand if you disagree with this argument (I don't know if I'd endorse it wholeheartedly), but I don't see how it is asinine. The wider context here is that there are people who believe in "general computing", i.e. the idea that users should retain full control over computing devices and software they buy. The philosophy of companies of companies like Nintendo is that when you buy a game from them, you are buying the right to play the game in exactly the way they want. If they could make modding illegal, they would (it is in Japan, to my understanding). This runs counter to the idea of general computing, where you should be to play a game you buy in any way you want, including modding, or playing on a different device, etc. So to return to the point, the argument is that by refusing to sell their games to users of other platforms (as well as their other actions), Nintendo is working against the goal of general computing, and therefore it's not worth feeling sorry for them when people pirate the game. Phrased differently, people who don't own a Switch have no way to play the game besides pirating, and people should be able to buy games separately from devices. Another fundamental argument here is that hardware/software walled gardens which are enforced by anti-circumvention and copyright laws are basically anti-competitive monopolies.

MyFedora 3y ago

I don't think Nintendo's argument that Yuzu's primary use case is piracy holds any merit. Nintendo is quite literally a part of the reason why people pirate Switch games they already own. What do you have to do to legally play Switch games on Yuzu? Oh, idk... * Jailbreak your Switch. * Dump your decryption keys. * Dump your games. * Never update your Switch ever again. * Pray Nintendo doesn't shove an update down your throat. * Void your warranty. * Hope Nintendo won't brick your Switch. How many people would use Yuzu legally if it weren't for Nintendo's anti-consumer practices? Nintendo can't just argue that Yuzu is made for piracy when Nintendo pushes people to piracy who legally own the Switch and Switch games in my opinion.

infotainment 3y ago
I feel like you’re undermining your own argument here. Yes, it’s exceedingly complex to “legally” play your own games on Yuzu. This bolsters the argument that Yuzu is primarily targeting users of pirated content, because essentially no one would bother doing all those steps you listed.
- jamesear 3y ago
  I think MyFedora is suggesting that even if Yuzu's primary usecase is piracy, that's because it's so difficult to use Yuzu in the legit manner (due to Nintendo's DRM on the console/game you own).
  - MyFedora 3y ago
    Yep, and that also inflates the number of pirates since some of them pirate Switch games for ease of use they already bought.
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. Currently we have this weird mealy-mouthed roundabout discussions where people act ever so outraged at the idea that a tool or site is primarily used for piracy when anyone who's not hopelessly naïve recognizes that that's in fact what they're used for. At best we get comments like yours that are anti-DRM...but still dance around the fact that being anti-DRM is being pro-piracy. This isn't even about whether I support piracy. I just think it's oddly disingenuous to both treat piracy as a moral/legal wrong (else why the need to defend/excuse Yuzu's clear involvement?) and be shocked and outraged when an entity whose works have been pirated does something about it.
    - jamesear 3y ago
      > I feel like it would be a lot more straightforward if people just came out and said that they think piracy should be legal. I don't think Yuzu advocates are actually advocating piracy. I think they think an illegal use of a tool should not mean the tool is banned. "Emulators don't pirate games, pirates do." I think our echo chamber will surface views amenable to this viewpoint. Emulation news is quite literally hacker news. But we deceive ourselves with such a bubble, when the outside world doesn't lean our way. Downplaying piracy usage doesn't do us any favours when trying to build an accurate model.
      - filleduchaos 3y ago
        I think you've phrased my point better than I did. What I meant was that to advocate for software like Yuzu to exist necessarily entails defending piracy, because outside of a tech echo chamber almost nobody is interested in an emulator existing for emulation's sake. To illustrate what I mean...if credible stats were somehow collected and showed that 99% of Yuzu users were using it to run games they didn't pay for, I think plenty of judiciaries at that point would consider it a de facto pirating tool versus a tool that is incidentally used for piracy. If you think that this still doesn't mean that the project should be shut down or fined, then I think it's a lot more productive to advocate for such software to exist even if it's a pirating tool than to try to sell everyone on the idea that it's totally a minority that are using it as such. And I think that would require going back to the drawing board re: digital IP rights.
- TillE 3y ago
  Of course nobody dumps their own games, but it's really common for people who already own the games to download a pirated copy to play on emulator. That's how I use Yuzu and Citra (which is especially great, so I don't have to squint at the crappy 3DS screens). Technically illegal, technically "piracy"? Probably! But morally, who cares.

zucker42 3y ago

Hammers are used for theft, as well. Even if Nintendo's business would benefit from emulators not existing[1], it doesn't mean we should ban emulators (or create laws which allow multinationals to sue open source emulator projects out of existence). [1] which is not necessarily true

jamesear 3y ago
I understand your argument, and perhaps a similar one will be made to the courts. For some people, if a tool has a single legitimate user, and otherwise haa illegitimate users, then the tool should be allowed. For others, if the tool is mostly used for illegitimate means, then the tool should be banned. Where the law lands in this case will be partly based on these values, and the benefits/harms to all parties. I don't know enough about the case, but I don't think it's as clear cut as a hammer.
- huggingmouth 3y ago
  Lock picking tools are legal and they're primarily used for illegal activities. The same can be said for gun use (not ownership). How much something is used for illegal activities should have no baring on whether it is allowed in a free country.
  - StefanBatory 3y ago
    Not everywhere! In Poland for example having lockpicking tools is illegal and carries prison sentence unless you're licensed lockpicker.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

gertop 3y ago

Seriously it's just bizarre how obtuse HN can be when it comes to piracy. Nobody is dumping their own games. Very few buy the switch games they emulate. The following usual claim is "it's Nintendo's own fault for not releasing their games on PC and Android". What kind of asinine argument is that? Then there's the "emulation isn't illegal", which is probably the only sound argument. But that isn't the issue here. The issue is the authors are now making over 500k/yr from their emulator, whose only purpose is to pirate games that are still commercially available.

zucker42 3y ago
> "it's Nintendo's own fault for not releasing their games on PC and Android" I understand if you disagree with this argument (I don't know if I'd endorse it wholeheartedly), but I don't see how it is asinine. The wider context here is that there are people who believe in "general computing", i.e. the idea that users should retain full control over computing devices and software they buy. The philosophy of companies of companies like Nintendo is that when you buy a game from them, you are buying the right to play the game in exactly the way they want. If they could make modding illegal, they would (it is in Japan, to my understanding). This runs counter to the idea of general computing, where you should be to play a game you buy in any way you want, including modding, or playing on a different device, etc. So to return to the point, the argument is that by refusing to sell their games to users of other platforms (as well as their other actions), Nintendo is working against the goal of general computing, and therefore it's not worth feeling sorry for them when people pirate the game. Phrased differently, people who don't own a Switch have no way to play the game besides pirating, and people should be able to buy games separately from devices. Another fundamental argument here is that hardware/software walled gardens which are enforced by anti-circumvention and copyright laws are basically anti-competitive monopolies.