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I would love to see OSS communities like Internet Archive or founders who are pro open source support them. Emulators are legal. Defending your hobby project i

I would love to see OSS communities like Internet Archive or founders who are pro open source support them. Emulators are legal. Defending your hobby project in court is infeasible without patrons. Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. As for the emulator itself, I don't see any argument that the Yuzu team used "illegal means" (internal SDKs, whatever their equivalent of a DLL is, etc). A thought for the Ryujinx emulator devs, who are also making an excellent Switch emulator (sometimes more performant than Yuzu). They must be having a really stressful day.

kevingadd 3y ago
The last time I tried to use Yuzu or Ryujinx it was still quite difficult. I had to get out my switch and physical game cartridges and manually dump a bunch of decryption keys and game files. It is absurd that Nintendo is trying to claim these emulators are piracy tools or intended for piracy when they don't seem to do anything to make it easy to play a pirated game copy.
- theshackleford 3y ago
  Most people just google for a dumped copy and your up and playing in minutes (as long as it takes to download.) Switch piracy is massive. Almost everyone I know is doing it. I’m not, but I still emulate because switch performance is poo. So I buy the game, and then emulate it in 4K/60, it’s how I finally finished BOTW.
  - wernercd 3y ago
    I stopped emulating when my game crashed and I lost weeks of BotW. I moved back to the switch after that lol. Emulation was awesome. Until...
    - causality0 3y ago
      That doesn't make sense. Botw keeps like five autosaves and they're all separate files which are never written to at the same time. You'd have to manually delete them to lose them.
      - wernercd 3y ago
        You can say it doesn't make sense... but the emulator crashed and my game was unrecoverable. I don't have the PC anymore but I know what I had happen.
        causality0 3y ago
        Your yuzu/ryujinx installation could've become messed up and stopped looking in the right folder but your save files were still there and recoverable, I promise.
        wernercd 3y ago
        I went through the old save files and it was dead. I know where they were located. I found the same manuals and the same walkthroughs. My game files were trashed. Restoring the different saves did nothing. I promise you, I know how to restore saved files and follow instructions on how to do as such. The emulators we easy to use. beautiful. responsive. After TOTK, the energy behind them had them getting constantly updated and was a good experience. Until it wasn't. Restarted TOTK on my Switch. I had bought it because I support games that are worth it even if I emulate them. I've got a Powkiddy RGB10 where I also emulate games. I've got a plex server where I host my own library. When I, a random person on the internet you can believe or not believe, say that my emulator died and I lost weeks of progress on my game? I lost weeks of progress on my game. I can't remember which I was using (I switched between them at one point because one was faster/better but I can't remember which one it was)
- Brainspackle 3y ago
  It took me 15 minutes from downloading Yuzu to playing Mario Kart on my PC. You're doing something wrong
  - kevingadd 3y ago
    Did you start from the Yuzu documentation? I installed it and walked through their official quick start guide. I didn't type "mario kart free rom" into google or anything.
    - denkmoon 3y ago
      That's the "legal" way, dumping your own copy of horizon OS, your console's keys, your carts and their keys. Of course it's quicker and easier to just download someone else's keys and dumps, and you're not protecting yourself from Nintendo by using your own stuff, you just get the peace of mind knowing it's your stuff you're using. It's also very quick if you're already set up with atmosphere & homebrew. Longest part was just waiting for my console's nand to dump.
      - goosedragons 3y ago
        Is Yuzu providing or linking to those dumps?
        denkmoon 3y ago
        They aren't (that would make Nintendo's case pretty clear cut), but you can find them fairly easily through the regular channels if you're familiar with piracy.
  - droopyEyelids 3y ago
    You forgot to mention whether you pirated the game or were playing it legally
    - VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
SamuelAdams 3y ago
> Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. Don't be so sure. From the article: > Emulator tools aren't inherently illegal, but the way in which Yuzu is being actively used and promoted is what Nintendo appears to be objecting to here. So it depends on what is actually in the case. At best, Yuzu needs to simply update some of its marketing material. At worst, they need to shut down and open under a new name / LLC, while also updating marketing material.
jsheard 3y ago
> Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. IANAL, but my understanding is that while emulation is unambiguously legal in the US after Bleem vs. Sony, an emulator which decrypts games is maybe not legal under the DMCA circumvention rules, and those have never really been tested in the context of an emulator. The Bleem case happened shortly after the DMCA was enacted, but PS1 games weren't encrypted or otherwise protected from being read by anything besides a PS1 so Bleem didn't have to circumvent anything. That seems to be the angle Nintendo is taking here, that Yuzu is the equivalent of something like DeCSS since it has the ability to circumvent their DRM scheme.
- m-p-3 3y ago
  AFAIK, the decryption keys to use the ROMs are not distributed with the emulator, and you need to retrieve these on your own from software licenses you possess.
  - jsheard 3y ago
    That's correct, Yuzu doesn't include the keys, but is there any precedent that "bring your own keys" actually works as a loophole around the DMCA circumvention rules? I'm not aware of it ever being tested, so it's unclear whether it would actually hold up in a case where the softwares express purpose is to consume keys for the purpose of circumventing DRM. Back when the movie industry was going after DVD ripping tools I don't recall anyone trying to dodge legal trouble by making the end-user supply the keys instead, so unfortunately we didn't get a decision either way back then.
    - ursa_solaris 3y ago
      To my knowledge the keys are just standard RSA-2048 keys. It's not illegal for a program to support RSA-2048, and it is no concern of the program or its developers where I get my keys from. I could just as easily use these keys in any other program. Even if in some foolish way they made it illegal for Yuzu to support industry standard decryption algorithms in this specific kind of program, then Yuzu would simply require the users to manually decrypt the game beforehand.
rasz 3y ago
>precedent waiting to happen no need, Sony already got us one. Bleem and VGS were a big business, Steve Jobs himself advertised VGS during Macworld 1999 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfu-xOGr1U&t=9m0s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfu-xOGr1U&t=9m0s Sony sued Bleem and lost in court Sony Computer Entertainment America v. Bleem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem!#Sony_lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem!#Sony_lawsuit Sadly court case legal fees bankrupted Bleem, Sony later bought VGS from Connectix, and hired Bleem programmers.
- tetrisgm 3y ago
  I am familiar with both. I think the fact that Nintendo still went ahead and this will likely have repercussions means that the precedent isn't enough of a deterrent.
catapart 3y ago
Agreed. A sensible enough judge could throw this out on summary judgement, circumventing the opportunity for Nintendo's lawfare. All of Nintendo's points have been tried, so there's really no need to bring this into argument. Even if all of their claims were true, they're not alleging anything illegal. Take it to court, ask for summary, and strengthen the legal defense for this kind of stuff. I really hope they don't roll over, even if nobody can blame them for doing so.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kevingadd 3y ago

The last time I tried to use Yuzu or Ryujinx it was still quite difficult. I had to get out my switch and physical game cartridges and manually dump a bunch of decryption keys and game files. It is absurd that Nintendo is trying to claim these emulators are piracy tools or intended for piracy when they don't seem to do anything to make it easy to play a pirated game copy.

theshackleford 3y ago
Most people just google for a dumped copy and your up and playing in minutes (as long as it takes to download.) Switch piracy is massive. Almost everyone I know is doing it. I’m not, but I still emulate because switch performance is poo. So I buy the game, and then emulate it in 4K/60, it’s how I finally finished BOTW.
- wernercd 3y ago
  I stopped emulating when my game crashed and I lost weeks of BotW. I moved back to the switch after that lol. Emulation was awesome. Until...
  - causality0 3y ago
    That doesn't make sense. Botw keeps like five autosaves and they're all separate files which are never written to at the same time. You'd have to manually delete them to lose them.
    - wernercd 3y ago
      You can say it doesn't make sense... but the emulator crashed and my game was unrecoverable. I don't have the PC anymore but I know what I had happen.
      - causality0 3y ago
        Your yuzu/ryujinx installation could've become messed up and stopped looking in the right folder but your save files were still there and recoverable, I promise.
        wernercd 3y ago
        I went through the old save files and it was dead. I know where they were located. I found the same manuals and the same walkthroughs. My game files were trashed. Restoring the different saves did nothing. I promise you, I know how to restore saved files and follow instructions on how to do as such. The emulators we easy to use. beautiful. responsive. After TOTK, the energy behind them had them getting constantly updated and was a good experience. Until it wasn't. Restarted TOTK on my Switch. I had bought it because I support games that are worth it even if I emulate them. I've got a Powkiddy RGB10 where I also emulate games. I've got a plex server where I host my own library. When I, a random person on the internet you can believe or not believe, say that my emulator died and I lost weeks of progress on my game? I lost weeks of progress on my game. I can't remember which I was using (I switched between them at one point because one was faster/better but I can't remember which one it was)
Brainspackle 3y ago
It took me 15 minutes from downloading Yuzu to playing Mario Kart on my PC. You're doing something wrong
- kevingadd 3y ago
  Did you start from the Yuzu documentation? I installed it and walked through their official quick start guide. I didn't type "mario kart free rom" into google or anything.
  - denkmoon 3y ago
    That's the "legal" way, dumping your own copy of horizon OS, your console's keys, your carts and their keys. Of course it's quicker and easier to just download someone else's keys and dumps, and you're not protecting yourself from Nintendo by using your own stuff, you just get the peace of mind knowing it's your stuff you're using. It's also very quick if you're already set up with atmosphere & homebrew. Longest part was just waiting for my console's nand to dump.
    - goosedragons 3y ago
      Is Yuzu providing or linking to those dumps?
      - denkmoon 3y ago
        They aren't (that would make Nintendo's case pretty clear cut), but you can find them fairly easily through the regular channels if you're familiar with piracy.
- droopyEyelids 3y ago
  You forgot to mention whether you pirated the game or were playing it legally
  - VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

SamuelAdams 3y ago

> Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. Don't be so sure. From the article: > Emulator tools aren't inherently illegal, but the way in which Yuzu is being actively used and promoted is what Nintendo appears to be objecting to here. So it depends on what is actually in the case. At best, Yuzu needs to simply update some of its marketing material. At worst, they need to shut down and open under a new name / LLC, while also updating marketing material.

jsheard 3y ago

> Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen. IANAL, but my understanding is that while emulation is unambiguously legal in the US after Bleem vs. Sony, an emulator which decrypts games is maybe not legal under the DMCA circumvention rules, and those have never really been tested in the context of an emulator. The Bleem case happened shortly after the DMCA was enacted, but PS1 games weren't encrypted or otherwise protected from being read by anything besides a PS1 so Bleem didn't have to circumvent anything. That seems to be the angle Nintendo is taking here, that Yuzu is the equivalent of something like DeCSS since it has the ability to circumvent their DRM scheme.

m-p-3 3y ago
AFAIK, the decryption keys to use the ROMs are not distributed with the emulator, and you need to retrieve these on your own from software licenses you possess.
- jsheard 3y ago
  That's correct, Yuzu doesn't include the keys, but is there any precedent that "bring your own keys" actually works as a loophole around the DMCA circumvention rules? I'm not aware of it ever being tested, so it's unclear whether it would actually hold up in a case where the softwares express purpose is to consume keys for the purpose of circumventing DRM. Back when the movie industry was going after DVD ripping tools I don't recall anyone trying to dodge legal trouble by making the end-user supply the keys instead, so unfortunately we didn't get a decision either way back then.
  - ursa_solaris 3y ago
    To my knowledge the keys are just standard RSA-2048 keys. It's not illegal for a program to support RSA-2048, and it is no concern of the program or its developers where I get my keys from. I could just as easily use these keys in any other program. Even if in some foolish way they made it illegal for Yuzu to support industry standard decryption algorithms in this specific kind of program, then Yuzu would simply require the users to manually decrypt the game beforehand.

rasz 3y ago

>precedent waiting to happen no need, Sony already got us one. Bleem and VGS were a big business, Steve Jobs himself advertised VGS during Macworld 1999 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfu-xOGr1U&t=9m0s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfu-xOGr1U&t=9m0s Sony sued Bleem and lost in court Sony Computer Entertainment America v. Bleem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem!#Sony_lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem!#Sony_lawsuit Sadly court case legal fees bankrupted Bleem, Sony later bought VGS from Connectix, and hired Bleem programmers.

tetrisgm 3y ago
I am familiar with both. I think the fact that Nintendo still went ahead and this will likely have repercussions means that the precedent isn't enough of a deterrent.

catapart 3y ago

Agreed. A sensible enough judge could throw this out on summary judgement, circumventing the opportunity for Nintendo's lawfare. All of Nintendo's points have been tried, so there's really no need to bring this into argument. Even if all of their claims were true, they're not alleging anything illegal. Take it to court, ask for summary, and strengthen the legal defense for this kind of stuff. I really hope they don't roll over, even if nobody can blame them for doing so.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]