4 ms·

For the keys to be considered to fall under the DCMA, they'd have to be copyrighted.

monocasa 3y ago
Not under 1201. They can form a copyright circumvention device without being subject to copyright themselves as long as they're used to protect an actual copywritten work (in this case the encrypted game images).
- withinboredom 3y ago
  I'm going to assume the encryption is not custom. If it is "off-the-shelf" then they'll have a real hard time proving that without making every browser on the internet a "copyright circumvention device." But regardless, if they "distribute" (ie, can be freely read off the device without special tools) the keys in the clear, it isn't used to protect anything.
  - monocasa 3y ago
    They use AES, but a pretty custom key derivation scheme to get to the AES keys for a specific game given the game's metadata and pre shared root keys installed on the switch at manufacturing time. Yuzu implements that key derivation scheme so that you don't have to track down per game version keys. A browser does not have the code to decrypt a switch ROM.
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      It sounds like even then, you'd have to agree to (or read) an EULA to know that this is some magical thing. It is certainly possible to implement something without ever doing either.
      - monocasa 3y ago
        1201 doesn't require signing a contract or agreeing to an EULA.
        withinboredom 3y ago
        Then how do you know there’s copyrighted content there and you aren’t just building something compatible?
        monocasa 3y ago
        It's soft; like a lot of legal concepts, there isn't a black and white test. At the end of the day it's what can be proven to a jury. In this case for instance, I don't think there's a decent legal strategy for Yuzu wrt "we didn't know the encryption on switch ROMs was a 1201 protected device".
        withinboredom 3y ago
        > we didn't know the encryption on switch ROMs was a 1201 protected device I didn't know that, and I'm a software engineer. Good luck convincing a jury :)
- boolemancer 3y ago
  Doesn't this use case fall squarely in the realm of the exception for the purposes of interoperability?
  - monocasa 3y ago
    That exception comes with a balance of (a)(2), which discusses commercial implications. So with Yuzu's patreon funds, it's very grey at the moment, which is probably why Nintendo decided to take aim.
nightpool 3y ago
I don't think that's the case. The games are copyrighted. The keys only need to constitute an effective anti-circumvention scheme (any technological measure that “effectively controls access” to a work) to be illegal to code for.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  If the keys are that readily available ... I don't think it is "effective" by any definition of the word.
  - monocasa 3y ago
    'Effectively' has a different meaning than y'all are reading. It's not effectively as in 'an effective, well constructed lock', but instead as in 'for all intents and purposes'. The law doesn't say 'it's illegal to break a lock until it's been broken'.
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      A door without a lock or sign saying "keep out" is not "effective for all intents and purposes." Further, you can buy a switch and never agree to any EULA or other contracts.
      - monocasa 3y ago
        > A door without a lock or sign saying "keep out" is not "effective for all intents and purposes." But picking a crappy lock on a door you're not supposed to open is still a crime, regardless of how crappy the lock is. > Further, you can buy a switch and never agree to any EULA or other contracts. 1201 doesn't require you to sign any conracts or agree to any EULAs. It's treated more like trespass.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    The DMCA definition >>...technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.

Not under 1201. They can form a copyright circumvention device without being subject to copyright themselves as long as they're used to protect an actual copywritten work (in this case the encrypted game images).

withinboredom 3y ago
I'm going to assume the encryption is not custom. If it is "off-the-shelf" then they'll have a real hard time proving that without making every browser on the internet a "copyright circumvention device." But regardless, if they "distribute" (ie, can be freely read off the device without special tools) the keys in the clear, it isn't used to protect anything.
- monocasa 3y ago
  They use AES, but a pretty custom key derivation scheme to get to the AES keys for a specific game given the game's metadata and pre shared root keys installed on the switch at manufacturing time. Yuzu implements that key derivation scheme so that you don't have to track down per game version keys. A browser does not have the code to decrypt a switch ROM.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    It sounds like even then, you'd have to agree to (or read) an EULA to know that this is some magical thing. It is certainly possible to implement something without ever doing either.
    - monocasa 3y ago
      1201 doesn't require signing a contract or agreeing to an EULA.
      - withinboredom 3y ago
        Then how do you know there’s copyrighted content there and you aren’t just building something compatible?
        monocasa 3y ago
        It's soft; like a lot of legal concepts, there isn't a black and white test. At the end of the day it's what can be proven to a jury. In this case for instance, I don't think there's a decent legal strategy for Yuzu wrt "we didn't know the encryption on switch ROMs was a 1201 protected device".
        withinboredom 3y ago
        > we didn't know the encryption on switch ROMs was a 1201 protected device I didn't know that, and I'm a software engineer. Good luck convincing a jury :)
boolemancer 3y ago
Doesn't this use case fall squarely in the realm of the exception for the purposes of interoperability?
- monocasa 3y ago
  That exception comes with a balance of (a)(2), which discusses commercial implications. So with Yuzu's patreon funds, it's very grey at the moment, which is probably why Nintendo decided to take aim.

nightpool 3y ago

I don't think that's the case. The games are copyrighted. The keys only need to constitute an effective anti-circumvention scheme (any technological measure that “effectively controls access” to a work) to be illegal to code for.

withinboredom 3y ago
If the keys are that readily available ... I don't think it is "effective" by any definition of the word.
- monocasa 3y ago
  'Effectively' has a different meaning than y'all are reading. It's not effectively as in 'an effective, well constructed lock', but instead as in 'for all intents and purposes'. The law doesn't say 'it's illegal to break a lock until it's been broken'.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    A door without a lock or sign saying "keep out" is not "effective for all intents and purposes." Further, you can buy a switch and never agree to any EULA or other contracts.
    - monocasa 3y ago
      > A door without a lock or sign saying "keep out" is not "effective for all intents and purposes." But picking a crappy lock on a door you're not supposed to open is still a crime, regardless of how crappy the lock is. > Further, you can buy a switch and never agree to any EULA or other contracts. 1201 doesn't require you to sign any conracts or agree to any EULAs. It's treated more like trespass.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  The DMCA definition >>...technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.